Mad Frog Liberator/Scotty vs. Ram - Kayak Fishing Adventures on Big Water’s Edge

davedkins · 12-29-2009, 11:38 AM

Hey Guys just picked up a Hobie outback and am carefully considering how to mount all my gear. I want to make sure I am very methodical about where to place and how to mount all my electronics. The last thing I want is to end up with a bunch of holes to repair. I would like to mount a Fishfinder(probably the Hummingbird 160C) and a Handheld GPS.

Southwind Kayaks recommended the "Mad Frog Gear, Liberator" to mount the Fishfinder. It has a retractable arm that allows the transducer to sit in the water, which they claim is more accurate than having it hull mounted. They advised me to put the extra transducer cable and battery source in a dry bag and strap it to the plate. My worry is that the install my look very dirty and having the transducer mounted outside of the hull maybe more trouble than its worth.

I also am mulling over how to attach it to the yak, Scotty or Ram mount. I like the Scotty because it is a flush mount but it means Drilling 5 holes into the yak. The Ram is nice because it only requires drilling to holes but maybe a pain in the future since it is mounted above the rail.

Just to recap Two questions:
1. External or interal Transducer mount?
2. Scotty vs. Ram Mount?

Thanks, Dave

Iceman · 12-29-2009, 12:25 PM

Using the RAM wedge mount in the sail mast will have you drilling no holes. Transducer over the side/ inside there are trade offs. You do get more detail especially at greater depth going over the side, snagging debris is an annoyance.

nabeeko · 12-29-2009, 01:55 PM

Hello Dave,

Congrats on your purchase.

Like Iceman has mentioned, use Ram Sail Mast mount for the Hobie.
You're basically sticking a ram mount (1" ball) into the Sail Mast in front of your drive. No holes required.

Once that's tightened, get a ram mount that matches your fishfinder and you're good to go.

For the transducer, Goop, Epoxy, Wet Mount all have their followers...

Good luck!

habanero · 12-29-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

Using the RAM wedge mount in the sail mast will have you drilling no holes. Transducer over the side/ inside there are trade offs. You do get more detail especially at greater depth going over the side, snagging debris is an annoyance.

Iceman has great points and the RAM wedge deal is the answer. I've had my share of outbacks and have been around the block with mounting stuff. Less is better. The more crap you have hanging over the side, the more chance you have for things hanging up when it counts.

Dragging a transducer will get annoying trying to hear surface disturbances. If you have a weak transducer (low power = lower cost) Through hull mount might make a significant difference. My power output is 250 Watt (RMS) / 2000 Watt (Peak-to-Peak) and I didn't notice any significant performance hit mounting inside or out. BTW my Humminbird claims an 800' max but in murky salt water, I'm lucky to see past 400'. (The good news is, I never fish 400' down) I'm not sure how a 160c does in salt water but I think size does count when you are talking about transducers.

I have a revolution now and I can simply run connections from the head, (mounted at the mast hole with the ram wedge) under the front hatch lid. The revolution has such a high lip that water can't get in once secured. I don't think the 2010 Outback has the same design so you might opt to drill a hole. The transducer sits in a foam holder that I fill with water every time I fish. I was never happy with several attempts using the various glues. Trapped air bubbles will jack up your signal and this is no problem when you use water.
I'd like to take credit for such elegant solutions but these ideas come from other, far more experienced kayak fishermen.

Your biggest foe will be salt water getting into you connections.

Di-electric grease the hell out of your connections and make as little connection outside the hull as you can.

dsafety · 12-29-2009, 02:02 PM

I am in the process of figuring out the same issues. I have a Revo and a new Humminbird Matrix 12. On this unit, the power and transducer cables permanently attach to the mounting bracket. The head slides in and out of the bracket, mating the cables with the appropriate plugs in the head unit. This is very nice except that I do not want to have the mounting bracket permanently attached to my kayak.

The Hummer 160 cables just plug into the back of the head and are not connected to the mounting bracket. I like the idea that the mounting bracket holds the cables tight and in the correct position. With the 160 you will probably have the same problems I had with my previous 215 where the cables do not always connect tightly to the head and the unit goes dead.

The best mounting solution for me would be to cut the power and transducer cables near the mounting bracket, attach a quick disconnect plug and leave the cables in the boat. The problem with this plan is that according to Humminbird, you cannot splice the transducer cable. If you do, the signal will be greatly diminished. There is no problem with splicing the power cable.

I have designed a removable mounting system for this unit which will slip into the sail mast hole on my Revo. I am also working on a new way to install the transducer inside the hull which does not require the transducer to be gooped in place. If this idea works, I will let everyone know.

The final challenge is what to do with the bulky mounting head when it is not mounted in the sail hole. At this point the best idea I have been able to come up with is to keep it in a dry bag stuffed into my front hatch. This is not ideal since I would prefer be able to wash and dry everything after use to reduce corrosion problems. Nothing stored in a closed up kayak is ever very dry.

The gears are still turning in my head. Maybe I will come up with a better plan. If anyone has any suggestions to share, please let me know.

Bob

habanero · 12-29-2009, 02:03 PM

BTW: I use one of the 500 series and my GPS antenna is outside and that sucks.

habanero · 12-29-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsafety

I am in the process of figuring out the same issues. I have a Revo and a new Humminbird Matrix 12. On this unit, the power and transducer cables permanently attach to the mounting bracket. The head slides in and out of the bracket, mating the cables with the appropriate plugs in the head unit. This is very nice except that I do not want to have the mounting bracket permanently attached to my kayak.

The Hummer 160 cables just plug into the back of the head and are not connected to the mounting bracket. I like the idea that the mounting bracket holds the cables tight and in the correct position. With the 160 you will probably have the same problems I had with my previous 215 where the cables do not always connect tightly to the head and the unit goes dead.

The best mounting solution for me would be to cut the power and transducer cables near the mounting bracket, attach a quick disconnect plug and leave the cables in the boat. The problem with this plan is that according to Humminbird, you cannot splice the transducer cable. If you do, the signal will be greatly diminished. There is no problem with splicing the power cable.

I have designed a removable mounting system for this unit which will slip into the sail mast hole on my Revo. I am also working on a new way to install the transducer inside the hull which does not require the transducer to be gooped in place. If this idea works, I will let everyone know.

The final challenge is what to do with the bulky mounting head when it is not mounted in the sail hole. At this point the best idea I have been able to come up with is to keep it in a dry bag stuffed into my front hatch. This is not ideal since I would prefer be able to wash and dry everything after use to reduce corrosion problems. Nothing stored in a closed up kayak is ever very dry.

The gears are still turning in my head. Maybe I will come up with a better plan. If anyone has any suggestions to share, please let me know.

Bob

I have spent way too much time fixing problems due to the "quick release" system. The multitude of tiny gold pins break easy and salt water alway get in since we sit a few inches over sea level. My solution will void any warranty but I basically, I hacked into my head unit and made a sealed wire harness using supplied wires long enough to reach inside the hull. I then have a single 9 pin water tight connector I plug into every time I launch. I scavenged the connector off an old Toyota in a junk yard. To be fare, I've asked other quick release users if they had the same problems, and most of them said they have had no problems but they ALL use some type of grease to keep off the salt water.

davedkins · 12-29-2009, 02:45 PM

Hey Guys thanks for the input. Is there any issue with being able to access the fishfinder menu and options while mounted in the sail mast?

Habanero- You have any pics of your wet mount?

habanero · 12-29-2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davedkins

Hey Guys thanks for the input. Is there any issue with being able to access the fishfinder menu and options while mounted in the sail mast?

Habanero- You have any pics of your wet mount?

Sorry no pictures of my home made foam reservoir but here is a video that gives you an idea of how to buy or make your own. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SguqN...eature=related
Nate calls it the "nifty transducer mount" (Foam block)

I know Nate and the rest of the team have all the stuff you can't find.

The one I made is 1.5" deep and the boarder around the cut away is about 1.5" wide.

I didn't glue my transducer in and just squirt water at hole after I've launched.

kareem korn · 12-30-2009, 07:48 AM

I like that external transducer idea. Instead of having the battery in a dry bag, I'd just have a few plugs in different areas of my kayak for power and the battery/batteries inside the kayak. It would be cleaner.

Iceman · 12-30-2009, 08:48 AM

The wedge is good for a set it and forget it set up. If you have a gps combo you would not want it that far forward as you have to scoot forward to reach buttons. My jacked shoulder had me looking to set up my rental Hobies to fish from and have been using this. I can easily put it in the Sport, Revo, Outback or Outfitter that I have. It is a homemade version of the TDA by MadFrog on a 12 volt portable that I made up.

dsafety · 12-30-2009, 08:53 AM

Can you access the front hatch with that setup installed?

Bob

Iceman · 12-30-2009, 09:37 AM

Bob, that is where the

went,

it swivels on the RAM ball.

davedkins · 12-30-2009, 10:27 AM

Iceman- Do you have issues with the Transducer getting stuck on kelp/debri often when the transducer is hanging off the side?

Has anyone tried a Humminbird "though-Hull" through a scupper or "Stick on" also feeding the wiring through a scupper?

12-29-2009, 11:38 AM	#1
davedkins Junior Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 13	Mad Frog Liberator/Scotty vs. Ram Hey Guys just picked up a Hobie outback and am carefully considering how to mount all my gear. I want to make sure I am very methodical about where to place and how to mount all my electronics. The last thing I want is to end up with a bunch of holes to repair. I would like to mount a Fishfinder(probably the Hummingbird 160C) and a Handheld GPS. Southwind Kayaks recommended the "Mad Frog Gear, Liberator" to mount the Fishfinder. It has a retractable arm that allows the transducer to sit in the water, which they claim is more accurate than having it hull mounted. They advised me to put the extra transducer cable and battery source in a dry bag and strap it to the plate. My worry is that the install my look very dirty and having the transducer mounted outside of the hull maybe more trouble than its worth. I also am mulling over how to attach it to the yak, Scotty or Ram mount. I like the Scotty because it is a flush mount but it means Drilling 5 holes into the yak. The Ram is nice because it only requires drilling to holes but maybe a pain in the future since it is mounted above the rail. Just to recap Two questions: 1. External or interal Transducer mount? 2. Scotty vs. Ram Mount? Thanks, Dave

12-29-2009, 12:25 PM	#2
Iceman Administrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: 1-2 miles off the point Posts: 6,948	Using the RAM wedge mount in the sail mast will have you drilling no holes. Transducer over the side/ inside there are trade offs. You do get more detail especially at greater depth going over the side, snagging debris is an annoyance. __________________

12-30-2009, 08:48 AM	#11
Iceman Administrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: 1-2 miles off the point Posts: 6,948	The wedge is good for a set it and forget it set up. If you have a gps combo you would not want it that far forward as you have to scoot forward to reach buttons. My jacked shoulder had me looking to set up my rental Hobies to fish from and have been using this. I can easily put it in the Sport, Revo, Outback or Outfitter that I have. It is a homemade version of the TDA by MadFrog on a 12 volt portable that I made up. __________________

12-30-2009, 09:37 AM	#13
Iceman Administrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: 1-2 miles off the point Posts: 6,948	Bob, that is where the went, it swivels on the RAM ball. __________________

12-29-2009, 02:02 PM	#5
dsafety Olivenhain Bob Join Date: May 2008 Location: Olivenhain, CA Posts: 1,121	I am in the process of figuring out the same issues. I have a Revo and a new Humminbird Matrix 12. On this unit, the power and transducer cables permanently attach to the mounting bracket. The head slides in and out of the bracket, mating the cables with the appropriate plugs in the head unit. This is very nice except that I do not want to have the mounting bracket permanently attached to my kayak. The Hummer 160 cables just plug into the back of the head and are not connected to the mounting bracket. I like the idea that the mounting bracket holds the cables tight and in the correct position. With the 160 you will probably have the same problems I had with my previous 215 where the cables do not always connect tightly to the head and the unit goes dead. The best mounting solution for me would be to cut the power and transducer cables near the mounting bracket, attach a quick disconnect plug and leave the cables in the boat. The problem with this plan is that according to Humminbird, you cannot splice the transducer cable. If you do, the signal will be greatly diminished. There is no problem with splicing the power cable. I have designed a removable mounting system for this unit which will slip into the sail mast hole on my Revo. I am also working on a new way to install the transducer inside the hull which does not require the transducer to be gooped in place. If this idea works, I will let everyone know. The final challenge is what to do with the bulky mounting head when it is not mounted in the sail hole. At this point the best idea I have been able to come up with is to keep it in a dry bag stuffed into my front hatch. This is not ideal since I would prefer be able to wash and dry everything after use to reduce corrosion problems. Nothing stored in a closed up kayak is ever very dry. The gears are still turning in my head. Maybe I will come up with a better plan. If anyone has any suggestions to share, please let me know. Bob

12-29-2009, 02:03 PM	#6
habanero Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: SD Posts: 133	BTW: I use one of the 500 series and my GPS antenna is outside and that sucks.

12-29-2009, 02:45 PM	#8
davedkins Junior Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 13	Hey Guys thanks for the input. Is there any issue with being able to access the fishfinder menu and options while mounted in the sail mast? Habanero- You have any pics of your wet mount?

12-30-2009, 07:48 AM	#10
kareem korn Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: C-bad Posts: 431	I like that external transducer idea. Instead of having the battery in a dry bag, I'd just have a few plugs in different areas of my kayak for power and the battery/batteries inside the kayak. It would be cleaner.

12-30-2009, 08:53 AM	#12
dsafety Olivenhain Bob Join Date: May 2008 Location: Olivenhain, CA Posts: 1,121	Can you access the front hatch with that setup installed? Bob

12-30-2009, 10:27 AM	#14
davedkins Junior Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 13	Iceman- Do you have issues with the Transducer getting stuck on kelp/debri often when the transducer is hanging off the side? Has anyone tried a Humminbird "though-Hull" through a scupper or "Stick on" also feeding the wiring through a scupper?