Electric Bilge Pump

[kareem korn]

I'd also shove a rubber stopper in that thru hull when not using the bildge. Nothings fail proof.

[Aaron]

Hello,

my first post on this site. I've been lurking for years, just signed up a few weeks back and decided to post on this subject as this is a project that I have in the works right now...

A few things to note about emergencies...First, they are often unexpected and incredibly fast. This is pretty obvious but seems to be forgotten with a few things that I've read. I think a bilge pump on a kayak is a great idea. I think that it is a MANDATORY accessory for anyone that is using a drop-in bait tank, a kayatank, or any thru-hull type pump. The real and obvious risk that you run with using these things is that they can be leaking and you wouldn't even know it. I've been out with 2 separate people now that came dangerously close to sinking their kayak due to a leaking bladder that they had no idea was leaking. That being said, switches, plugs in the outlet, etc. etc. are all means of crippling your safety device.

The automatic bilge pumps that they have now are GOOD. These are not your old "connect your bilge to a separate float so that your system is the size of a small army" style pumps. They are compact. They turn on only when there are a few inches of water in the boat. They have an internal check valve. And they even come apart for easy cleaning. Water starts to fill the boat and you don't know about it, the pump turns on, you'll hear it, water gets pumped out AND you can investigate. I don't know why you would go any other route.

By adding a manual switch into that system, you are adding a significant weak point. Switches have consistently been the weak point in the electronics of my system. You could go through a wave on your way out, short your switch and you wouldn't even know it until trouble showed up. A manual switch also requires you to catch the leak "before its too late". The kayaks that I've seen nearly sink had water in them almost to the deck before the operators realized there was a problem. If the base of your switch or even just the leads to your switch are under water, you'll be lucky if they work.

And plugging the water outlet is a bad idea. As previously stated, be certain to run a generous amount of hose above your outlet prior to running it down to the bilge and the amount of water coming into the hull from the outlet will be minimal. Plugging the outlet requires you to remember to UNplug the outlet with things "hit the fan". And when things hit the fan, its amazing what you will forget.

I just recently redid my x-factor and my setup is like this...I run a thru-hull (tsunami) pump to the standard x-factor drop-in bait tank that sits behind the seat. The bait tank pump, as well as my fishfinder are run to a pelican waterproof battery case that houses a12v 18amh battery. Both are connected to the battery box via a 4 pin connector and each are connected to their own separate switches and separate fuses. I run my automatic bilge on a separate set of wires to a separate sealed 2 pin connector that sits far above the waterline where the automatic bilge pump kicks in. Since the bilge is automatic, no switch is required. The only break in the direct connection to the battery is the fuse, which, like the other fuses, is sealed in an inline waterproof container AND is in the waterproof pelican battery box. And just in case, I carry a hand bilge strapped to the inside of the lid of my front hatch. And if all of that fails, Neptune wanted my kayak...BAD...but I still have my life jacket, a whistle, a waterproof vhf, a waterproof gps, and a prayer.

I was planning on posting up a few pics of my yak this weekend and perhaps they'd give someone some ideas to improve on what I have. I won't pretend that my setup is the only answer. But, everyone thinks their set-up is the "right" one, and I'm no exception. Its part of why we rig our kayaks. Its fun to think this stuff thru.

I've seen some great things on this site and you guys have been so much more helpful than my lurking would suggest. This site has been my guilty "go-to click" while I've been in grad school and your posts and reports have helped me through many a dreary day of little pay and little time which translates to limited opportunities to take the yak out. So a blanket thanks for all the help and for the opportunities to do a bit of vicarious living through all of you. I'll do my best to participate more and "give a bit back"! Thanks one last time.

[dgax65]

I've got a few ideas on this topic as well.

Having an electric bilge pump will not solve all your problems. Like any electrical equipment on your kayak, it may fail. There are a number of things that you can do to make sure that it will work when you need it. Use marine-grade wiring and components when wiring your electrical system. Put the battery and bus bars/terminal boards in a waterproof box. Weatherproof all the wiring external to the waterproof box. Even if you don't take on water, every time you use your kayak it is exposed to salt air and high levels of humidity. All exposed electrical components/wiring/connectors WILL corrode if you don't protect them. Either use heat shrink butt connectors or liquid electrical tape on your connections. If you have an exposed conductor that you can't seal with liquid electrical tape, use a heavy coat of dielectric grease or a product like Fluid Film to protect it. Check the wiring/connectors/electrical components on a regular basis. Clean and repair those items as soon as wear or corrosion is noted. As Jim Day said, our kayaks are getting rigged more and more like boats. You have to treat them with the same care and respect as a boat.

You should always have a manual backup means of dewatering. Keeping a hand pump inside the hull might not be the best idea. If you have already taken on a significant amount of water and your yak is unstable, opening that big forward hatch to get to your pump might be disastrous. I always keep my hand pump leashed on deck, where I can reach it in a hurry. Only open the hatch with the greatest clearance from the waterline. The rear hatch on an X-Factor or the center hatch on a Prowler might not be the best to use for dewatering. A small shift in balance or a stray wave might put that open hatch under water while you're pumping.

Don't let your kayak fill with water. That sound obvious, but look at the posts about yak sinkings and leaks. I follow over a dozen kayak fishing forums around the country and the world. I have seen lots of reports of kayak leaks, swampings and sinkings. In many cases the yakker reported that he didn't notice a problem until the kayak took on enough water to affect stability. That is usually too late for easy corrective actions. Obviously, a large leak will swamp a kayak quickly; however, most kayaks don't have catastrophic hull failures. Usually, it is a small crack or hole at a weak point on the hull. Your first line of defense is to regularly check your kayak for damage. Get in the habit of routinely checking the hull before use. On a dark beach at 0400 in the morning isn't the time to look for hull damage. Do it before you load up. Check the usual suspects: scupper holes, seams, through-hull fittings, wear spots on the keel, rudder mounts, around the Mirage Drive on Hobies and internal bait tanks and their plumbing.

Learn how your kayak sits in the water. I know exactly where the water comes up to on my scuppers with the standard load on my kayak. I make a habit to check the water level frequently. If you have to, mark your normal waterline with a Sharpie marker. Immediately check for leakage if you are sitting more than a 1/2" lower than your normal waterline. Again, this sounds obvious, but you would be amazed at how often guys are taken completely by surprise when their yak is taking on water. Your initial indication of taking on water shouldn't be falling off of your suddenly tippy kayak. Learn the warning signs. If you have to, paddle around with 20-30 gallons in the hull to learn how it feels. That would also be good practice for pumping out your hull while on your kayak.

How do you power your bilge pump? If you have your FF, bait tank pump and bilge pump all running off the same battery, will you have enough juice to keep the bilge dry if you spring a leak at the end of a long fishing session? I will be reworking my electrical system when I install my bilge pump. My bait tank pump will run off a dedicated battery (6 or 12VDC), while the FF/GPS and bilge pump will be supplied by a 12VDC 10Ahr battery. I know from experience that the FF/GPS will run for at least a full day on the 10A-hr battery. When the bait tank pump and the FF are both on the same battery, the life of the FF is greatly reduced, but the pump will run for hours after the FF shuts down (at 10.2V). That should give me plenty of time to reach shore or summon help.

I ordered a Whale Super Sub 500 from West Marine this afternoon. It should be in on Friday. I'll try to thoroughly document the installation process and post the results. I'll make sure to include some of the great ideas already mentioned in this thread.

[ful-rac]

Originally Posted by dgax65

I've got a few ideas on this topic as well.

Having an electric bilge pump will not solve all your problems. Like any electrical equipment on your kayak, it may fail. There are a number of things that you can do to make sure that it will work when you need it. Use marine-grade wiring and components when wiring your electrical system. Put the battery and bus bars/terminal boards in a waterproof box. Weatherproof all the wiring external to the waterproof box. Even if you don't take on water, every time you use your kayak it is exposed to salt air and high levels of humidity. All exposed electrical components/wiring/connectors WILL corrode if you don't protect them. Either use heat shrink butt connectors or liquid electrical tape on your connections. If you have an exposed conductor that you can't seal with liquid electrical tape, use a heavy coat of dielectric grease or a product like Fluid Film to protect it. Check the wiring/connectors/electrical components on a regular basis. Clean and repair those items as soon as wear or corrosion is noted. As Jim Day said, our kayaks are getting rigged more and more like boats. You have to treat them with the same care and respect as a boat.

You should always have a manual backup means of dewatering. Keeping a hand pump inside the hull might not be the best idea. If you have already taken on a significant amount of water and your yak is unstable, opening that big forward hatch to get to your pump might be disastrous. I always keep my hand pump leashed on deck, where I can reach it in a hurry. Only open the hatch with the greatest clearance from the waterline. The rear hatch on an X-Factor or the center hatch on a Prowler might not be the best to use for dewatering. A small shift in balance or a stray wave might put that open hatch under water while you're pumping.

Don't let your kayak fill with water. That sound obvious, but look at the posts about yak sinkings and leaks. I follow over a dozen kayak fishing forums around the country and the world. I have seen lots of reports of kayak leaks, swampings and sinkings. In many cases the yakker reported that he didn't notice a problem until the kayak took on enough water to affect stability. That is usually too late for easy corrective actions. Obviously, a large leak will swamp a kayak quickly; however, most kayaks don't have catastrophic hull failures. Usually, it is a small crack or hole at a weak point on the hull. Your first line of defense is to regularly check your kayak for damage. Get in the habit of routinely checking the hull before use. On a dark beach at 0400 in the morning isn't the time to look for hull damage. Do it before you load up. Check the usual suspects: scupper holes, seams, through-hull fittings, wear spots on the keel, rudder mounts, around the Mirage Drive on Hobies and internal bait tanks and their plumbing.

Learn how your kayak sits in the water. I know exactly where the water comes up to on my scuppers with the standard load on my kayak. I make a habit to check the water level frequently. If you have to, mark your normal waterline with a Sharpie marker. Immediately check for leakage if you are sitting more than a 1/2" lower than your normal waterline. Again, this sounds obvious, but you would be amazed at how often guys are taken completely by surprise when their yak is taking on water. Your initial indication of taking on water shouldn't be falling off of your suddenly tippy kayak. Learn the warning signs. If you have to, paddle around with 20-30 gallons in the hull to learn how it feels. That would also be good practice for pumping out your hull while on your kayak.

How do you power your bilge pump? If you have your FF, bait tank pump and bilge pump all running off the same battery, will you have enough juice to keep the bilge dry if you spring a leak at the end of a long fishing session? I will be reworking my electrical system when I install my bilge pump. My bait tank pump will run off a dedicated battery (6 or 12VDC), while the FF/GPS and bilge pump will be supplied by a 12VDC 10Ahr battery. I know from experience that the FF/GPS will run for at least a full day on the 10A-hr battery. When the bait tank pump and the FF are both on the same battery, the life of the FF is greatly reduced, but the pump will run for hours after the FF shuts down (at 10.2V). That should give me plenty of time to reach shore or summon help.

I ordered a Whale Super Sub 500 from West Marine this afternoon. It should be in on Friday. I'll try to thoroughly document the installation process and post the results. I'll make sure to include some of the great ideas already mentioned in this thread.

Well said Doug! Marine grade wire, marine grade shrink tube, and marine grease/dielectric, is definitely necessary on anything on a boat or especially a kayak. Anybody who is going to attempt to build this thing should follow these guidelines. Just like Doug said, "Check the wiring/connectors/electrical components on a regular basis. Clean and repair/replace those items as soon as wear or corrosion is noted."

Good luck on your build Doug! Can't wait to see the pictures!

Tony.

[dsafety]

How about this as an inexpensive bilge pump idea. Mount some sort of an intake device in the lowest point of your yak. Connect a long tube to it which under most conditions would be just curled up and stored, (maybe under the seat).

In an emergency, pull out the tube and connect it to the intake hose of your bait tank. Turn on the tank and pump the yak dry. It would probably be best to have some sort of a diversion valve to block off the normal water intake to the tank when pumping the yak.

Of course there would probably be priming issues that would have to be dealt with, (maybe you could put a priming bulb in the tubing somewhere.)

This idea might be a bit hard to implement for those of us that have tanks with scupper intakes such as the Hobie LiveWell but I am sure a workable design could be found.

Bob

[kareem korn]

Originally Posted by sapdawg711

The automatic bilge pumps that they have now are GOOD. These are not your old "connect your bilge to a separate float so that your system is the size of a small army" style pumps. They are compact. They turn on only when there are a few inches of water in the boat. They have an internal check valve. And they even come apart for easy cleaning. Water starts to fill the boat and you don't know about it, the pump turns on, you'll hear it, water gets pumped out AND you can investigate. I don't know why you would go any other route.

By adding a manual switch into that system, you are adding a significant weak point.

I'm going to disagree. By not adding a manual switch you creating an "out of sight out of mind" situation. I guess your just going to assume that your bilge is going to work. When are you going to find that out, after you've noticed the weight of the water in your hull?


And plugging the water outlet is a bad idea. As previously stated, be certain to run a generous amount of hose above your outlet prior to running it down to the bilge and the amount of water coming into the hull from the outlet will be minimal. Plugging the outlet requires you to remember to UNplug the outlet with things "hit the fan". And when things hit the fan, its amazing what you will forget.


I'm going to disagree again. Is it really hard to reach over and pull the plug? Please.


.

You really want to keep water from inside the hull? Quit drilling holes in your kayak. You want all that crap, buy a boat. Most got into kayaking for the simplicity of it. What's wrong with the bucket in the milk crate on the outside of the kayak, or the bait tube (again on the outside).

I've never had water in the hull with the exception of getting caught in the surf. The manufactures seals on the manufactures molded openings are suffencient to keep most of the water out.

[dgax65]

Originally Posted by kareem korn

You really want to keep water from inside the hull? Quit drilling holes in your kayak. You want all that crap, buy a boat. Most got into kayaking for the simplicity of it. What's wrong with the bucket in the milk crate on the outside of the kayak, or the bait tube (again on the outside).

One of the nice things about kayaks is that they are versatile. If you just want a simple chunk of plastic that floats, you got it. If you want a low-cost alternative to a boat that can still fish inshore waters, you got it. Fishing kayaks are just a reflection of their owners; some are simple and some are complex. There is no right or wrong in this argument; just different ways of accomplishing the same goal............

[GregAndrew]

Kareem, you must not have a Trident lol. I get water going through my hatches when it is humid out!

Doug, great catch on bilge pump placement as the Tridents (Rod Pod) are concerned. I had just placed a strap inside my Rod Pod to secure my pump and drift chute, but now I am thinking electric. The low back edge of the Pod has to be the weakest link in that yak.

[kareem korn]

Your right Doug. It's fun pimping your kayak out. But there's alot of mods that you can do without putting you at risk out there. This bilge pump this dude shared in this post is badass. Personally, I would've put the outlet on a hatch (if angled) or in the inside where it would hit me in the balls if it turned on . That'll wake you up and tell you there's water in there.

Here's another question......Can all you kayakers swim? Are you in shape enough to tread water for hours? Can you even get back on your kayak without help if you went over. You better plan on at least falling off your kayak. Unlike being on a boat with little to no water contact, you don't have much separating you from the open ocean. If you can't handle yourself separated from your kayak you shouldn't be out that far. Bilge or no bilge.
These are the one's that should refrain from popping holes under or near the waterline to modify their kayaks.

[sandydiego]

Kareem. You have many vaild points. How many of us have actually tested their PFD's? Might be a good idea to get into a pool with all your gear on.

[Aaron]

Originally Posted by kareem korn

You really want to keep water from inside the hull? Quit drilling holes in your kayak. You want all that crap, buy a boat. Most got into kayaking for the simplicity of it. What's wrong with the bucket in the milk crate on the outside of the kayak, or the bait tube (again on the outside).

I've never had water in the hull with the exception of getting caught in the surf. The manufactures seals on the manufactures molded openings are suffencient to keep most of the water out.

Wow, bold font...eyes rolling...sarcasm...welcome to the forum.

Turns out paddling a boat is a bit tricky due to their size. Its also a bit tougher to sit next to a big boiler or just outside the surfline on a boat than a yak, thus I'll stick with the kayak. These mods are all safe and easy to do and redundant safety features should be in your repertoire whether you have any mods on your kayak or not. Even with a rod holder or even just a hatch, the hull is opened up and things could go south, though like other mods, they typically do not. Nothing wrong with a bait tube at all, I have one. I also have a bait bucket that I float tube with. But I believe this discussion was on "Electric Bilge Pump"s and thus that is what I discussed. Just trying to keep on topic.

Also turns out that MOST automatic bilge pumps have 2 positive wires so that you can run it in BOTH auto AND manual if you wish. If the switch in the manual line fails, it is bypassed by the auto-function and the pump still works. You can also switch it to manual whenever you wish if there is only a scant amount of water that isn't enough to turn the auto function on but that you would still like to get rid of. They also have a test switch as another redundant feature to make sure the auto function is working without filling your hull with water. AND no check valve required, its in the pump. Its a pretty solid set up is all I was saying.

As far as a plug, you can put it in, but my point is that its entirely unnecessary if the tubing is properly ran. You could put a hose up to that mushroom head outlet and turn it on and with the check valve in the bilge, you'll be there for a while trying to swamp the yak. Splashing the port while paddling isn't going to result in any more water in your hull than splashing water into the rod holders on your deck, and this is especially true if your tubing is run above the outlet at some point.

Sorry if it came off like I was knocking anyone's ideas or setup. I tried to make that clear by saying "everyone thinks their's is the one". They are all great ideas and I was just throwing out my two cents. Kareem, no hard feelings, different strokes for different folks and I like having a bait tank that I don't have to prime and that is relatively low maintenance. But yeah, its even easier to prime and even lower maintenance to just have a bait tube. I get it.

Dgax...I am running everything off of a single 12V 18 a-hr (the thing is massive) battery. I've tested it with EVERYTHING (FF, bait tank, bilge) running in the pool for quite a while (a few hours) and the battery still had lots of charge and nothing sounded/looked like it was slowing down. Like I said, this was all really recently redone and I'm looking forward to getting it on the water for some real testing. Doing the math, the FF and bait tank should run continuously longer than I could spend on the water, but if I planned to stay especially long, I could take along the second battery pack that I have. If after fishing it for a while I find that power is an issue, I have a couple of 12v 7a-hr batteries that I used in my old setup that I can rig to be dedicated to the bilge only. We shall see and I'll post the results...

[kareem korn]

Originally Posted by sapdawg711

Wow, bold font...eyes rolling...sarcasm...welcome to the forum.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean it like that. The words sometimes loose meaning with out a voice behind them.

[Aaron]

Originally Posted by kareem korn

I'm sorry, I didn't mean it like that. The words sometimes loose meaning with out a voice behind them.

no worries man.

[dgax65]

It only took me a few months, but I finally got around to installing the bilge pump in my Malibu Stealth 14. It is not nearly as neat and clean as Ful-Rac's installation, but it works, so I'm happy with that. Here are a few pictures.





I didn't do the anti-backflow bend that Jim Day recommended. Even though it is a good idea and makes a lot of sense, I was constrained by space. I'll probably use an external plug.



I'm going fishing on Sunday, so we'll see how it works.

You can find the complete details at The Overloaded Kayak

[tunaseeker]

Great Info ful-rac! I was the one who took on a lot of water on Thursday via a hole in the scupper. I like the setup, thanks for sharing.

Question: I have a ff battery 12v do you need another battery for this one or did you rut it to your ff?

[maui jim]

Originally Posted by kareem korn

You really want to keep water from inside the hull? Quit drilling holes in your kayak. You want all that crap, buy a boat. Most got into kayaking for the simplicity of it. What's wrong with the bucket in the milk crate on the outside of the kayak, or the bait tube (again on the outside).

I've never had water in the hull with the exception of getting caught in the surf. The manufactures seals on the manufactures molded openings are suffencient to keep most of the water out.

Here's a saying from my old motorcycle desert racing days:

"If you have a $10.00 head , wear a $10.00 helmet",

I think the bilge pump is a great tool for the kayak fishing people, It may not be for everyone but for those who dont mind it, it's unreplaceable, I carry a, manual pump, and can disconnect my above deck bait tank pump to stuff it in the forward 8" hatch to drain also, But I have been toying around with a simular system but just need a few more pieces in place.,
I carrya 12 Vt. battery below deck for FF so it's no worries for the wiring.
Thanks for the ideas.

[ful-rac]

Originally Posted by dgax65

It only took me a few months, but I finally got around to installing the bilge pump in my Malibu Stealth 14. It is not nearly as neat and clean as Ful-Rac's installation, but it works, so I'm happy with that. Here are a few pictures.





I didn't do the anti-backflow bend that Jim Day recommended. Even though it is a good idea and makes a lot of sense, I was constrained by space. I'll probably use an external plug.



I'm going fishing on Sunday, so we'll see how it works.

You can find the complete details at The Overloaded Kayak

Great job Doug! Looks good! So how did it work out for you? I'm pretty sure you don't have to plug anything, personally I never get any water coming in from the thru hull.

Tony.

[AquaticHunter]

Hey guys I have a couple of questions. I just installed a bilge pump in my kayak using pretty much the same setup shown in this thread. The check valve works great. I bought the one here and used 1 adaptor on each side. I can't force water through the hull fitting with a garden hose up to it at full blast.

The installed a Rule 360 bilge pump as opposed to the Whale Systems pump you used. I went with this pump simply because I didn't want to deal with the special glue but I'm beginning to think there was a reason besides the low profile that you went with that pump.

Do you have any priming issues with that pump? The Rule wouldn't start pumping out water until it was almost fully submerged. So I'm either going to have to install a priming bulb or switch pumps.

Another issue was that it stopped pumping out water when there was still a good 1/2" of water in the kayak. I installed it for 2 reasons. A) for safety since I drilled a hole in the bottom of the hull for my bait tank pump and B) I like to take all my fishing stuff off and surf the kayak once in a while which always gets a lot of water inside. I was hoping the bilge pump would get that water out but if it leaves 1/2" of water it sort of defeats that purpose since that's what I considered a lot of water. I'm wishing I had that deep channel which would help but I don't. If I could design my own kayak...

So the questions are... do you have to prime the pump and how much water is left in the kayak with the Whale pump?

[ful-rac]

No, I never have to prime the pump, I just flip the switch. After the water pumps out I usually have 3-4 cups of water left.

[AquaticHunter]

I'm switching pumps. Thanks Ful-rac. Great idea and thanks for sharing it.