Arnie and his enviro cronies screwed us--AGAIN - Kayak Fishing Adventures on Big Water’s Edge

robmandel · 09-29-2010, 02:30 PM

a few things, and I will end this.

as for the economists and houses, mostly it was policy, not economists. some argued for creating a housing bubble, but policy did it. I'd explain, but you're better off reading Tom Woods or Bob Murphy.

As for the mpa's, of course if you don't fish an area it's fish populations will increase. that's freaking obvious. don't fish at all, yes, there'll be more fish. but will we get a spillover effect with bass, rock fish, etc.? we simply don't know. we have mpa's already and there's not been documented evidence, in california, on california species. truth is the science wasn't settled.

eco-tourism will not benefit at all from mpa's. there's nothing gonna suddenly appear in five years that isn't there now. that's a moot point. the LJ caves are there and visited. mpa's won't help that. people paddle off the coast on paddleboards and kayaks and what not already. eco-tourism in california is like the whale watching trips. they aren't going to be affected, either way. and yo apparently missed the "undisturbed and unpolluted state" part. eco-tourism would disturb. and it'd be such a small addition which would be far surpassed by all the loss and extra cost.

as for the mpa's addressing other issues, if it falls on local agencies, they're flat broke. if it falls on the state agencies, they're flat broke too. and it leaves too much wiggle room, cf. "to the extent possible". and the mlpa was specifically about closing areas to fishing. period.

it's more than buoys. you're going to create a nightmare of enforcement, unless you want civilian patrols, neighbor turning in neighbor, citizen turning into enviro-police. welcome to the soviet union. and no, that's not hyperbole.

all along, the obvious solution was management. look at what fishermen have done with the white sea bass (not that I'd know, but that's my poor fishing skills!) fishery. or how we've handled the black sea bass. put slot limits, take limits, do C&R, all that. we're fine with that, and will absolutely support that 110%. do you honestly think that the closure people really are concerned with your fishing? do you think they want healthy sustainable fishing? if you do, then you're fooling yourself. I'd use worse, but I'll leave that to your imagination.

the closures were never about any of that, and if you were there, if you went through what we went through, you'd know it. you'd know the malfeasance of the brtf and the hearings. you'd know what the "other side" tried to pull, and even still, was able to get away with. you'd know how the rules (i.e. persistent kelp) were changed, altered, rewritten, etc. you'd know of the behind door dealings on maps (illegal by the way). you'd know how science was specifically thrown out, ignored, or in other cases, modified. but you weren't, and you don't.

there's not a single guy here who doesn't want healthy fish populations, doesn't want to see well managed fisheries. not a single guy here isn't in touch, literally, with water quality and it's impact. not a single guy here doesn't want to work hand in hand with the dfg to manage game, nail poachers, and stop the vast over harvesting by some commercial fishing. oh, and the fact that we were lumped with the commercial fishing, that's another thing.

but the bottom line is still principle. it was an egregious act of abuse by government, taking away livelihoods from some, liberty from all. in any other venue, the newspapers woulda been all over this like stink on shit. it woulda been front page news. but it wasn't even mentioned. it was top to bottom a corrupt, dishonest, and disgusting process, an abuse of power by a government set against its citizens. but you don't know that, or don't care to know.

if our fisheries were in peril, that'd be one thing. but they're not. and what is affecting them is far removed from 3 miles of coastline in malibu or la jolla and can't be corrected by closing them off. and we know they'll be back. the mpa's slated won't solve the problem, and we know that more is coming. we know what they want, what the money is trying to buy, and what the goal is.

healthy fishing isn't their goal. no fishing at all is.

I will fight them as long as I have breath in my lungs.

dsafety · 09-29-2010, 02:46 PM

It's not in my nature to stay silent about things that I care about but that is exactly what I am going to do here. Rob's last post pretty much covers things. Well done.

I just have one question for Stan. For a guy who claims to be new to all of this, he seems pretty passionate about his point of view. That is unusual from a newbie. Could Stan actually be a seasoned agent from the other camp out trying to steal some souls? It's possible.

If that is your game Stan, I don't think you will find many in this community willing to take a bite of your poison. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Most of us just don't agree with yours.

Bob

zenspearo · 09-29-2010, 04:19 PM

Turns out that they gave the public another 15 days, but that's because that's the amount of time DFG calculates will be sufficient for them to finish cramming this Socal closure down our throat by their magic Dec. 15 deadline. Any longer and they will miss the "deadline" (guess those who have the gold makes the rules, and the pro-closure people know who pay their salary so they are scrambling to make that artificial deadline).

In contrast, the DEIR process for lesser CEQA projects (less complex and smaller sizes) have run 90, 120 days. But they are going to cram it down our throat on this one.

So in the end, the shenanigan landed them a FG&C Commissioner who's an enviro insider and they throw the public a 15-day bone. I predict they are going to try to push for more closures now with the new closurephile Commissioner on board.

How much you want to bet elements of Map 3 and External C is going to be pushed in these last two FG&C meetings in October and December? They are going to try to slide in as much as they can now that they have the FG&C voting rigged. We are now back to fighting for the survival of our sports.

To the troll: These guys are nice, trust me. You definitely got a pass here on this board. Try some of your troll on spearboard and see how long you'll last before you get a firm kick in the nuts and a permanent ban.

I happen to know the mod over there and he can be an a$$hole

MVC · 09-29-2010, 04:36 PM

Arnold wants to push this through before he is out of office. I regret my vote for him more than any vote of my lifetime. Hopefully the courts will throw this back in his face.

dsafety · 09-29-2010, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan K G

Yes, I'm a sekrit MLPA agent sent by arnold to steal all your fishing rods. Lock them up and hide the key!

hint; not everyone that thinks differently from you is a secret opposition agent

Stan, it is spelled Secret. As with many of your our other comments, your ignorance is showing here. I am done listening.

Bob

Gino · 09-29-2010, 07:51 PM

Look what I got!

Hello Sir nice to meet ya. Nice to see someone fishing dressed in there sunday Best!

See thats the fundamental differances here. And those folks Rob, Dsafety and even Steveo summed it up best.

You know Stan, The constitution Doesnt say that i have a right to fish. But shutting down large secions of the California coast to fishing is just flat out wrong.

I took my first girlfriend up to the Dana point headlands, Now its going to be a Hotel. But I aint against Developement.
I grew up in Dana point, I fished up and down the coast of Laguna. I live only 20 minutes up the coast. And I still miss my home.

That Coastline that some of you Enviormental folks seem to know so much about. all those red areas on a map, Landmarks and Gps cordinates. They may just be that to you.

But those places, They are All that I am...

The MLPA process doesnt hurt the big sportboats, or the commercial fleets, the guys taking all the fish. Its hurting the local kayak fishign comunity, they peopel who take less than 1% of fish in comparrison to the rest... Were the ones getting a shaft.

Stan you dont know who your talking to here. The people in this community pick up trash when out on the water, they fish man powered crafts. They are not keeping mass Quanities of fish, not even the full limits. They enjoy the sport becuase it puts them in touch with the enviorment. Anyone could get a loan for some Fancy Lefty Marine Biologist Degree, where they teach you that Science is proving logic wrong And that just becuase fish have tales doesnt mean they wont swim out of the Reserves, And that if you take a sentence move the words around it could mean what they want it to mean and whatever. The people in This community are made up of Tax payers. Mothers and Fathers. Hard working Americans, and outdoor enthusist.

What you dont udnerstand is that those who take from the Enviorment could tell you alot about it. Fisherman have Infinately more knowlege about the Ocean than some professor in a classroom. When you love something, you put your whole heart it in, and try to learn everything about it.

In fact Im doing a study right now on California Halibut Diets. And what they eat during certain times of the year, and what they are feeding on in certain Enviorments, i personally think they eat more than the bait we use to catch them with.

Yeah I was college myself, most folks here know im a pretty young guy for this crowd. But i know what they teach you "marine Biologist" I took a good deal of classes myself. And a good lot of it is Horse shit.

What this MLPA has done. Is it has damaged the the relationships between the state and the fisherman. In other states, Fisherman and the DFG work hand in hand to help manage the enviorment. Fisherman take form the Enviorment so as a whole they know whats going on. And they have the most to lose from its mis management. Now the DFG survey folks cant get an honest anwser to questions about what they caught anymore., becuase folks think that info could be used in the MLPA proces to guide the state on where to close? The fisherman dont trust state anymore.

You came on here looking for a fight. and you got one. Pick apart any anyones posting all you want. You arent going to Sway any minds here.

So take a Hike. God forbid I ever see a sunday school dressed guy out there surf fishing. I might think its you.

robmandel · 09-29-2010, 06:44 PM

non-mlpa economics interlude-------
politicians make policy. it was politicians that wanted to subsidize housing, fed chairmen that flooded the markets with money and artificially lowered interest rates, politicians that forced lenders (CRA) to make bad loans, etc. I'd go on, but read tom woods and bob murphy for starters. i'll admit that from mankiw to krugman, they got it all wrong. I'm a libertarian. student of austrian economics. also, I despise both parties equally.
-------

you remind me of aristophanes' play, the clouds. or perhaps Plato's Gorgias. are you playing Thrasymachus?

on a side note, this is an awesome site, filled up with a bunch of great guys who love to help out others with kayak fishing. it's an invaluable resource and you're gonna meet lots of guys here on the water. and you'll learn a ton from them. but I'm kinda thinking you might not find it so. I'd advise you to change your screen name and kinda leave the mlpa stuff alone. you don't know, and you don't know what you don't know.

i'm out. got better things to do than feed trolls.

to my brothers down south

:c heers1:

AquaticHunter · 09-29-2010, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan K G

Gino seems to think he shouldn't be told where and how to fish...fishing is a right apperently...missed that part of the constitution I guess.

CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE 1 DECLARATION OF RIGHTS

Section 25. The people shall have the right to fish upon and from
the public lands of the State and in the waters thereof....

Clear enough for you genius?

I think I remember you. Are you the guy at the Long Beach MLPA meeting who said he was a kayak fishing guide and then insulted all kayak fishermen as being incompetent and stupid on the water?

I really like the game you played here. Starting with... "what's wrong with a little closure? Seriously, please explain it to me.." going from that to quoting obscure scientific studies and insulting some great guys.

Freedom and liberty are the bottom line here. The freedom to put the kids in the car and go down to our favorite spot to go fishing. The freedom to drive along the coastline with a kayak in the back looking for a new spot to launch from and fish. These freedoms are going to be gone if we don't do something. And when that freedom is gone, it's gone forever. Lost freedoms only return by the spilling of blood. That's why we talk about this fight in battle terms.

To the rest of the guys on this board...

09-29-2010, 04:19 PM	#3
zenspearo Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 167	Turns out that they gave the public another 15 days, but that's because that's the amount of time DFG calculates will be sufficient for them to finish cramming this Socal closure down our throat by their magic Dec. 15 deadline. Any longer and they will miss the "deadline" (guess those who have the gold makes the rules, and the pro-closure people know who pay their salary so they are scrambling to make that artificial deadline). In contrast, the DEIR process for lesser CEQA projects (less complex and smaller sizes) have run 90, 120 days. But they are going to cram it down our throat on this one. So in the end, the shenanigan landed them a FG&C Commissioner who's an enviro insider and they throw the public a 15-day bone. I predict they are going to try to push for more closures now with the new closurephile Commissioner on board. How much you want to bet elements of Map 3 and External C is going to be pushed in these last two FG&C meetings in October and December? They are going to try to slide in as much as they can now that they have the FG&C voting rigged. We are now back to fighting for the survival of our sports. To the troll: These guys are nice, trust me. You definitely got a pass here on this board. Try some of your troll on spearboard and see how long you'll last before you get a firm kick in the nuts and a permanent ban. I happen to know the mod over there and he can be an a$$hole __________________ A spearo, but we are in this MLPA mess together

09-29-2010, 02:30 PM	#1
robmandel Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 186	a few things, and I will end this. as for the economists and houses, mostly it was policy, not economists. some argued for creating a housing bubble, but policy did it. I'd explain, but you're better off reading Tom Woods or Bob Murphy. As for the mpa's, of course if you don't fish an area it's fish populations will increase. that's freaking obvious. don't fish at all, yes, there'll be more fish. but will we get a spillover effect with bass, rock fish, etc.? we simply don't know. we have mpa's already and there's not been documented evidence, in california, on california species. truth is the science wasn't settled. eco-tourism will not benefit at all from mpa's. there's nothing gonna suddenly appear in five years that isn't there now. that's a moot point. the LJ caves are there and visited. mpa's won't help that. people paddle off the coast on paddleboards and kayaks and what not already. eco-tourism in california is like the whale watching trips. they aren't going to be affected, either way. and yo apparently missed the "undisturbed and unpolluted state" part. eco-tourism would disturb. and it'd be such a small addition which would be far surpassed by all the loss and extra cost. as for the mpa's addressing other issues, if it falls on local agencies, they're flat broke. if it falls on the state agencies, they're flat broke too. and it leaves too much wiggle room, cf. "to the extent possible". and the mlpa was specifically about closing areas to fishing. period. it's more than buoys. you're going to create a nightmare of enforcement, unless you want civilian patrols, neighbor turning in neighbor, citizen turning into enviro-police. welcome to the soviet union. and no, that's not hyperbole. all along, the obvious solution was management. look at what fishermen have done with the white sea bass (not that I'd know, but that's my poor fishing skills!) fishery. or how we've handled the black sea bass. put slot limits, take limits, do C&R, all that. we're fine with that, and will absolutely support that 110%. do you honestly think that the closure people really are concerned with your fishing? do you think they want healthy sustainable fishing? if you do, then you're fooling yourself. I'd use worse, but I'll leave that to your imagination. the closures were never about any of that, and if you were there, if you went through what we went through, you'd know it. you'd know the malfeasance of the brtf and the hearings. you'd know what the "other side" tried to pull, and even still, was able to get away with. you'd know how the rules (i.e. persistent kelp) were changed, altered, rewritten, etc. you'd know of the behind door dealings on maps (illegal by the way). you'd know how science was specifically thrown out, ignored, or in other cases, modified. but you weren't, and you don't. there's not a single guy here who doesn't want healthy fish populations, doesn't want to see well managed fisheries. not a single guy here isn't in touch, literally, with water quality and it's impact. not a single guy here doesn't want to work hand in hand with the dfg to manage game, nail poachers, and stop the vast over harvesting by some commercial fishing. oh, and the fact that we were lumped with the commercial fishing, that's another thing. but the bottom line is still principle. it was an egregious act of abuse by government, taking away livelihoods from some, liberty from all. in any other venue, the newspapers woulda been all over this like stink on shit. it woulda been front page news. but it wasn't even mentioned. it was top to bottom a corrupt, dishonest, and disgusting process, an abuse of power by a government set against its citizens. but you don't know that, or don't care to know. if our fisheries were in peril, that'd be one thing. but they're not. and what is affecting them is far removed from 3 miles of coastline in malibu or la jolla and can't be corrected by closing them off. and we know they'll be back. the mpa's slated won't solve the problem, and we know that more is coming. we know what they want, what the money is trying to buy, and what the goal is. healthy fishing isn't their goal. no fishing at all is. I will fight them as long as I have breath in my lungs.

09-29-2010, 02:46 PM	#2
dsafety Olivenhain Bob Join Date: May 2008 Location: Olivenhain, CA Posts: 1,124	It's not in my nature to stay silent about things that I care about but that is exactly what I am going to do here. Rob's last post pretty much covers things. Well done. I just have one question for Stan. For a guy who claims to be new to all of this, he seems pretty passionate about his point of view. That is unusual from a newbie. Could Stan actually be a seasoned agent from the other camp out trying to steal some souls? It's possible. If that is your game Stan, I don't think you will find many in this community willing to take a bite of your poison. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Most of us just don't agree with yours. Bob

09-29-2010, 04:36 PM	#4
MVC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Costa Mesa Posts: 278	Arnold wants to push this through before he is out of office. I regret my vote for him more than any vote of my lifetime. Hopefully the courts will throw this back in his face.

09-29-2010, 07:51 PM	#6
Gino Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 520	Look what I got! Hello Sir nice to meet ya. Nice to see someone fishing dressed in there sunday Best! See thats the fundamental differances here. And those folks Rob, Dsafety and even Steveo summed it up best. You know Stan, The constitution Doesnt say that i have a right to fish. But shutting down large secions of the California coast to fishing is just flat out wrong. I took my first girlfriend up to the Dana point headlands, Now its going to be a Hotel. But I aint against Developement. I grew up in Dana point, I fished up and down the coast of Laguna. I live only 20 minutes up the coast. And I still miss my home. That Coastline that some of you Enviormental folks seem to know so much about. all those red areas on a map, Landmarks and Gps cordinates. They may just be that to you. But those places, They are All that I am... The MLPA process doesnt hurt the big sportboats, or the commercial fleets, the guys taking all the fish. Its hurting the local kayak fishign comunity, they peopel who take less than 1% of fish in comparrison to the rest... Were the ones getting a shaft. Stan you dont know who your talking to here. The people in this community pick up trash when out on the water, they fish man powered crafts. They are not keeping mass Quanities of fish, not even the full limits. They enjoy the sport becuase it puts them in touch with the enviorment. Anyone could get a loan for some Fancy Lefty Marine Biologist Degree, where they teach you that Science is proving logic wrong And that just becuase fish have tales doesnt mean they wont swim out of the Reserves, And that if you take a sentence move the words around it could mean what they want it to mean and whatever. The people in This community are made up of Tax payers. Mothers and Fathers. Hard working Americans, and outdoor enthusist. What you dont udnerstand is that those who take from the Enviorment could tell you alot about it. Fisherman have Infinately more knowlege about the Ocean than some professor in a classroom. When you love something, you put your whole heart it in, and try to learn everything about it. In fact Im doing a study right now on California Halibut Diets. And what they eat during certain times of the year, and what they are feeding on in certain Enviorments, i personally think they eat more than the bait we use to catch them with. Yeah I was college myself, most folks here know im a pretty young guy for this crowd. But i know what they teach you "marine Biologist" I took a good deal of classes myself. And a good lot of it is Horse shit. What this MLPA has done. Is it has damaged the the relationships between the state and the fisherman. In other states, Fisherman and the DFG work hand in hand to help manage the enviorment. Fisherman take form the Enviorment so as a whole they know whats going on. And they have the most to lose from its mis management. Now the DFG survey folks cant get an honest anwser to questions about what they caught anymore., becuase folks think that info could be used in the MLPA proces to guide the state on where to close? The fisherman dont trust state anymore. You came on here looking for a fight. and you got one. Pick apart any anyones posting all you want. You arent going to Sway any minds here. So take a Hike. God forbid I ever see a sunday school dressed guy out there surf fishing. I might think its you.

09-29-2010, 06:44 PM	#7
robmandel Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 186	non-mlpa economics interlude------- politicians make policy. it was politicians that wanted to subsidize housing, fed chairmen that flooded the markets with money and artificially lowered interest rates, politicians that forced lenders (CRA) to make bad loans, etc. I'd go on, but read tom woods and bob murphy for starters. i'll admit that from mankiw to krugman, they got it all wrong. I'm a libertarian. student of austrian economics. also, I despise both parties equally. ------- you remind me of aristophanes' play, the clouds. or perhaps Plato's Gorgias. are you playing Thrasymachus? on a side note, this is an awesome site, filled up with a bunch of great guys who love to help out others with kayak fishing. it's an invaluable resource and you're gonna meet lots of guys here on the water. and you'll learn a ton from them. but I'm kinda thinking you might not find it so. I'd advise you to change your screen name and kinda leave the mlpa stuff alone. you don't know, and you don't know what you don't know. i'm out. got better things to do than feed trolls. to my brothers down south :c heers1: