WCW Poll - next season start

[nmbrinkman]

Originally Posted by dorado50

WCW is like a second job. If you don't have one (a second job) than this is it. Fish before ,after or during your other job. This is a very unique tournament that takes alot out of onesself, physically, mentally and emotionally, perhaps that is why there is always a winner! Changing the format to cater to the people that don't put in the effort for this tourney is wrong imo. A one day shot at fish is pretty much luck, however a year long tourny is all skill and fortitude. I,myself have never been in a tournament ,where prize monies were involved to be fun... This is an awesome tournament, and not another like it that I know of, leave it alone or go home........

I never have been and won't be someone who bitches about my lack of oppurtunity to fish or complains how I can't keep up with the guys who have quick access and time to fish LJ. That's fine, it is what it is. But...

...Effort has little to do with it. What makes you think your effort is any greater than anyone else's anyway?

A full effort and me fishing at every available opportunity does not mean that I'm going to be out there just as much as you. Our same effort and all my spare time may result in usually 2-3 outings a month (5-6 max) while yours may be 2-3 times a week (if not more). Don't just assume that because you don't see the lower third out as much as you that that they're putting out less effort. Just seems a bit Bush league.

Like I said earlier. I don't care about the situations some have that allow them to fish more or whatever. I'll still join WCW 08 and 09 if that's possible and I'll still give 100%. As for where I place, that really isn't up to me IMO. As for a second job, when fishing becomes a job I quit. But throw in kids and fishing is a third job.

As for the format. It makes sense and is simple and clear to understand. I don't mind it the way it is. But I do see where others are coming from. It's no secret that the top 10 have much more opportunity to fish than the bottom 21. That is in no way taking away from their skill. But I can understand where the guys in the lower rankings are coming from. If it's not "fun" for the non top 10, why should they join? So they can hand their money to the top 3? There is no WCW without #31 - #11.

With that said, some take the tournament a little too serious. It's still just fishing. I joined WCW to be a part of something fun. I mean how can it not be with a YT jackpot prize that includes a whole lot of beer. I guess that's easy for me to say though.

[dorado50]

Tyler, I think that if there were no monies and prizes offered than this could be fun again, but once it becomes a contest there must be a winner. You can be friends off the court but not necessary on the court,or ring, or racetrack,etc..This is no different.If one doesn't want to win why enter in the first place?

[dorado50]

Originally Posted by nmbrinkman

Actually it's a third job. Work, Family, Fishing. I wish it weren't that way but it is. I'm not and won't be someone who bitches about my lack of oppurtunity to fish or complains how I can't keep up with the guys who have quick access and time to fish LJ. That's fine it is what it is. If you ask me, some take it a little too serious and a little too personal. It's still just fishing. I joined WCW to be a part of something fun. I mean how can it not be with a certain prize that includes beer.I guess that's easy for me to say though.

To get that prize one needs to work real hard and take it seriously. Its a "contest" not a giveaway!! Its competition, love or leave it........

[dgax65]

I am comfortable with the current format. Fishing competitions and fishing in general, tend to reward those who get the most time on the water. I don't think we should change the format to handicap those who are dedicated enough to get out and fish frequently. The current format is very unique, in that it actually rewards the hardcore kayak fisherman. The results reflect dedication, perseverance and effort; kind of like the Iron Man of kayak fishing. If we want to get more people involved or allow more people to feel like they have a chance of winning something, then we should add elements to the supplement the existing format.

What about quarterly mini-tournaments? Each quarter would have a three-day window for submissions. We could do three consecutive days or select 3 Saturdays during the quarter. The Entry fee for each quarterly tournament would be $20, with 50% off for WCW participants. Points for fish caught during the quarterly tournament would also apply to WCW. Participation in the quarterly tournaments would be rewarded by adding 10-20 WCW bonus points per fish caught during the three-day window.

[dorado50]

Originally Posted by dgax65

I am comfortable with the current format. Fishing competitions and fishing in general, tend to reward those who get the most time on the water. I don't think we should change the format to handicap those who are dedicated enough to get out and fish frequently. The current format is very unique, in that it actually rewards the hardcore kayak fisherman. The results reflect dedication, perseverance and effort; kind of like the Iron Man of kayak fishing. If we want to get more people involved or allow more people to feel like they have a chance of winning something, then we should add elements to the supplement the existing format.

What about quarterly mini-tournaments? Each quarter would have a three-day window for submissions. We could do three consecutive days or select 3 Saturdays during the quarter. The Entry fee for each quarterly tournament would be $20, with 50% off for WCW participants. Points for fish caught during the quarterly tournament would also apply to WCW. Participation in the quarterly tournaments would be rewarded by adding 10-20 WCW bonus points per fish caught during the three-day window.

Well stated, I think you know about competitions and its affects on the soul....

[nmbrinkman]

Originally Posted by dorado50

To get that prize one needs to work real hard and take it seriously. Its a "contest" not a giveaway!! Its competition, love or leave it........

Like I said after I edited my post, there is not a competition without the bottom two-thirds. Although I'm on your side in regards to the issue, but the "prizes" may be bigger with a larger field (more sponsors). That may mean you have to allow "giveaways" but the top prizes would be bigger.

[dorado50]

Originally Posted by nmbrinkman

I never have been and won't be someone who bitches about my lack of oppurtunity to fish or complains how I can't keep up with the guys who have quick access and time to fish LJ. That's fine, it is what it is. But...

...Effort has little to do with it. What makes you think your effort is any greater than anyone else's anyway?

A full effort and me fishing at every available opportunity does not mean that I'm going to be out there just as much as you. Our same effort and all my spare time may result in usually 2-3 outings a month (5-6 max) while yours may be 2-3 times a week (if not more). Don't just assume that because you don't see the lower third out as much as you that that they're putting out less effort. Just seems a bit Bush league.

Like I said earlier. I don't care about the situations some have that allow them to fish more or whatever. I'll still join WCW 08 and 09 if that's possible and I'll still give 100%. As for where I place, that really isn't up to me IMO. As for a second job, when fishing becomes a job I quit. But throw in kids and fishing is a third job.

As for the format. It makes sense and is simple and clear to understand. I don't mind it the way it is. But I do see where others are coming from. It's no secret that the top 10 have much more opportunity to fish than the bottom 21. That is in no way taking away from their skill. But I can understand where the guys in the lower rankings are coming from. If it's not "fun" for the non top 10, why should they join? So they can hand their money to the top 3? There is no WCW without #31 - #11.

With that said, some take the tournament a little too serious. It's still just fishing. I joined WCW to be a part of something fun. I mean how can it not be with a YT jackpot prize that includes a whole lot of beer. I guess that's easy for me to say though.

You should join only to become one of the top three and make some friends along the way and gain a whole lot of knowlege.....

[nmbrinkman]

If people only joined to be part of the top 3 then only 5 people would join. Most of us join knowing full well we aren't going to crack the top 5 or 10. The point is to be part of something in general. Something that only a handful of people can be a part of. It's the "win or go home" attittude that kills it. Prizes are just there to keep people going year round. The donkey needs the carrot knowing full-well he isn't ever going to catch it.



This is starting to sound familiar.... http://www.bigwatersedge.com/bwevb/s...ead.php?t=1474

[wavster]

I like the quarterly tournament idea, but it wouldn't make much
sense to have WCW participants pay each quarter if they're already
in it for the year. I think it would be a great supplement.

As for a new format, I'm not sure that's the esscence of WCW.
At least for me it's not. It takes a lot to stay focused for
12 months. It also evens out those slumps and freak
good days/months.

It takes all kinds to make it interesting. Josh and Brad are
both excellent fisherman and their position on the
leaderboard proves that. The gap between 2nd and 3rd is wide due
to their skills, not just time on the water.

Maybe we just need to have more 1 day tournaments to get people
fired up...

[jscott]

From someone not in WCW 07 here are a few ideas.

-if we want more participation in wcw-- then require all posts within 72hrs of catch(or as soon as return home from out of country). But put WCW08 forum board to be private so that only registrants can view this. This takes away the fears that lurkers will flood the area. And people who like the intel (as I would) would be more than willing to join-- knowing that they wouldn't likely place top 3
-fishing is about fun, friends we meet, and challenging your own personal goals...I bet many will be more than happy to 'out' a bite if they know only the wcw kayak community can see this report. It also takes some of the luck out of it...as everyone will have the same intel/info and some people aren't better connected to a private pipeline of info.
-Start it either immediately after wcw07 or very soon thereafter. With YT bite heating up-- if there was a break and it didn't start until the fall (or offseason for many fisherman)-- less people would be willing to pay and sign up. Summer fishing in 08 needs to be included if you want a large group of people. (more people = more payout)
-Supplemental contests/giveaways will definitely keep more interest....maybe some smaller prizes for players after top 3-- top 10 get a WCW Beanie...11-20 get a t-shirt-- 21-30 get a box of crackers... etc..

my 2 cents that may only be worth 1 cent.

[wavster]

I like the 72 hour post suggestion, as well. I would definitely agree that
the WCW forum be locked to participants only, with that rule.

[madscientist]

Originally Posted by jscott

-fishing is about fun, friends we meet, and challenging your own personal goals...

That is an essential point right there. I get the feeling some people are more interested in the trophy than in the experience. Got to prove your "the best". But kayak fishing is not about that, and even if it were it's an improper medium with insufficient statistics. Take my win at the BWE tournament (or even the WCW kickoff). 90% or more of the contestants are perfectly capable of landing that fish. A dozen guys were in the same area doing the exact same thing as I was. I did nothing special, just did the right thing at the right time and then got lucky. Doesn't make me a better fisherman. In it's current incarnation, WCW is a reward for time on the water, with a side of luck as to when the point fish come (Unless you're Arne, in which case I don't know what the hell it is: some combination of skill, commitment, luck, and a deal with the devil I suspect).


Having a ton of time to fish is a reward in itself, there's no need to collect the props and cash from those that don't, and certainly no need to wave it in other people's faces.

Unless the format is something that is is more good natured and fun, I will not do WCW next year, except perhaps jackpots.


I suggest those that want to measure effort and dedication set up their own competition where they can punch in and out on the webcam, thus proving who spends the most time on the water. Perhaps have a multiplier based on the conditions (like degree of difficulty in diving), judged by the BWE viewership. Bonus points for taking a dump at sea (the Andy special). Tape shot required.lol

[dgax65]

I suggested the quarterly tournament as a method of keeping those who can't fish on a regular basis interested and involved in WCW. Sort of a mix of instant gratification and reward for perseverance all wrapped up in one tournament structure.

Regardless of the format, I'm in for next year. I know I'm not going to win, so I can just have fun and hopefully catch a few

[Dan]

Brad nailed it on all points.

[nmbrinkman]

Originally Posted by Dan

Brad nailed it on all points.

It's nice to see that I'm not the only one in it for the experience.


I don't like the idea of forcing guys to post a timely submission but how about maybe giving a 1 point bonus for fish caught and submitted 36 hours of being caught, .5 point bonus for fish reported within 3 days of being caught, and the deadline for a individual month's submission is midnight of the 1st on the following month (ie. fish submitted for April must be in by 11:59pm on May 1st).

I still like the idea of a "priviledged" forum for WCW participants. That would enable us to get to know each other a bit more, share some advanced techniques and whatnot. I would say share "hot" info but loose lips may sink that ship. A confidentiality agreement seems a bit over-the-top. I'd sign one though if it helped make the tourney more competitive though. Not sure what the consensus will be on that topic. Either way, a WCW forum would be nice.

[tylerdurden]

People calling WCW a "second job" and such illustrates the difference in attitudes some people have about the competition. I think fishing is supposed to be fun, not a second job. If you want to be that competitive about something there are real sports to play.

Why enter if you don't want to win...
All of us would like to win, but in reality everyone knows that those that spend the most time on the water will win. The top 3 have much more flexible fishing schedules than the rest and are far and away ahead of the everyone points wise. I don't have a problem with that. It's the way it should be. But if the only people that entered were those that have a chance to win, there would be about 4 entries. Just about anyone in the top 10+ entrants is skilled enough to win if they had the time and the commitment to WCW. Some entered for the experience, some to be part of something, some to show they are the best kayak fisherman on the planet, some to brag, some for internet ego, some becuase they want to support the site and people that got them into fishing in the first place and so on. If you want more people to join you have to give those that have no chance of winning an incentive. If you ease the rules to give everyone a chance it becomes more like a lottery and skill and time account for less.

I agree that fish should be posted by the end of the month. When there is a 7 day leeway you can wonder if the fish submitted was really caught during the correct month. Having a WCW only forum would be nice, but timely reports posted on there would leak so fast. I think people have a false sense of idealism about it. Do you really think the top guys are going to give away GPS #'s, hot bite info and everything on a WCW forum? There are no "advanced techniques" that are secrets. All advanced techniques used can be readily found on these public forums. Most of the time it boils down to averages, eventually if you drag a greenie around for enough days or hours a hungry fish will swim by and eat it. Those that spend more time are more likely to be in the right place at the right time, and the more fish you catch the more likely one will be big.

As for next years format, my two cents are 12 months, fish caught any day are eligible keeps it in the same spirit. Having monthly or quarterly one day tournaments drains people. There are already too many kayak tournaments as it is, and people are over it as evidenced by the lower participation in the Moyer tourny for the first time, the low numbers for the BWE tourny last year, and the plethora of other kayak fishing events to choose from.

[Lit-up1]

I don't think a break is in order-kind of a fishy period to skip-
I like the idea of getting more fun involved into BWE-
I am totally tournamented out, but I will be down for whatever moderators
come up with probably-
Look at the big fish categories-
Nate-YT
Me WSB
I forget- HB
All to be determined in the next month, but some scores potential by people who don't have the same time on the water as the leaders seems cool. How about a monthly side jackpot for anyone who submits a fish-
randomly drawn and you can't win more than one monthly jackpot and if nobody wins that month it is a carryover to the next month---
So I like to be able to win something knowing I cannot be in the top 3
because donating to feel good about getting current fish reports is no
longer possible since no one reports timely anymore---
On a side note it seems strange nobody reports timely-do any of the top 5 people think that the other 4 are sitting home wating to see if anyone reports a fish so then they will go out-I seriously feel thats whats going on--get reel those top guys are on the water right now probably

[steveooo]

Maybe a little redundant, but heres my opinion for what its worth.
Although I am nuts in many ways, I will not throw away $40 a year to a competition I know that I can not win. I think so many of the competitors are stand-up guys. If we were hanging out at a bar or something, I would pick up a $40+ dollar tab, but I wont just throw 40 bucks into a community pot just for kicks. In it's current format, average guys with average jobs do not have a chance.
I know that with 100 guys you will get 100 different responses on what the format should be. I'll go with the majority and join if there is a chance that I can even break into the top 20. If not, I will be a spectator. I will join the 1 day tourneys, because there is more of a level playing field.
However, I am not bitching and moaning. I realize that there are guys that are competitive about fishing, competitive about fishing reports, competitive about life in general. The current format suits those people. I think the majority of guys fish for recreation, a sense of comradory, and to spend a little time away from the realities of life in the on-the-water cave.
Will I pay $40 to watch a competition? Heck yes. We all drop that kind of dough for sporting events. I do support a closed WCW forum. Not for info on the hot bites or for GPS numbers, but to keep the competition, entertainment and community going. If there is not a change, the competition and eventually the site will eventually fizzle up for fear of the recent bad vibe that has been on the site in regard to sharing a report. I think there is something special about this site, and there is a reason that so many guys have stuck it out for so long when other sites are struggling. I think that has more to do with friendship and all the other good stuff that comes as a by-product of BWE, rather than info on the hot bites.
Enough hugging, go get some

[Holy Mackerel]

As per usual, very good insights, comments, concerns... etc...

I doubt I will have time to commit to WCW this year, due to other types of water activities etc, I am interested in... Besides a non-flex work schedule, I am Mexican, so I got family stuff every weekend...!

If anything, I'd like to see non-participants be allowed in the JP series, actually, that would make them participants, so lets reframe that... That would jack up the JP's for biggest YT, WSB, Hali, and slam... In fact, this may be the only true measure to "level" the playing field for a yearly contest, albeit, not quite as exciting...


chris

[Holy Mackerel]

I know I just posted, but unfortunately one other concern is the MLPA, and us as fisherman, and hopefully conservators of our local fishery, besting our already two #30 YT's, or 2 #50 WSB, to get a #38, and #53 respectfully for points, may do more harm than good. Dont get me wrong, I see nothing unethical about catching and keeping within the current laws. Nor, do I think we are putting a great dent in the pelagic fishery, then again, I have no science to really back that statement up... but, I just dont know how good this is on a public board with outside observers looking on for ammunition, on an already big bonfire. I believe Paul Lebowitz stated photos have been presented at Northern MLPA meetings, Paul correct me if I am wrong.

chris