Can You Carry a Concealed Weapon on a Kayak

[ronbo613]

Just so you know, we have this same discussion regarding carrying a sidearm when riding mountain bikes out in the boonies. There are places where a bear or cougar encounter are a real possibility, but....
Most of these discussions occur when the weather turns bad, people spend too much time in the house and start scraping for things to talk about. They look a lot like this thread.

[Dannowar]

Originally Posted by alanw

I don't want to be caught in the crossfire from the paddle-by shootings. I'll have to wear my Bulletproof Life Vest just to travel through the LJ hood.

[janines.fishtales@cox.net]

California Penal Code 25400 PC makes it a crime to carry a concealed firearm on your person or in a vehicle.¹ This charge is separate and distinct from:

• Penal Code 25850 PC, California's law against carrying a loaded firearm,² and
• Penal Code 26350 PC, openly carrying an unloaded firearm in public.³
• just stay in the bay like me

j

[Cbad Mike]

As someone who's armed more times than not I will tell you that I believe that it is against the law to carry a firearm on a kayak while fishing in California waters (LJ for example). Plus I know for a fact that it's illegal to fire a firearm within a certain distance from the shoreline. The distance that you would need to go to legally use a firearm on a boat is not one that would really be accessible by kayak.
I'm not telling anyone not to carry protection if they want but I will tell them to completely understand California's f***ed up gun laws if they do.
I personally live by the motto that it's better to be judged by 12 then to be carried by 6 but the fact is that if I felt fishing was so dangerous to warrant carrying a gun to do it I would simply not fish.

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by Cbad Mike

As someone who's armed more times than not I will tell you that I believe that it is against the law to carry a firearm on a kayak while fishing in California waters (LJ for example). Plus I know for a fact that it's illegal to fire a firearm within a certain distance from the shoreline.

You raise some good points.

So.... I did some checking.

This is from Carrie Wilson at the DFG/DFW

Carrie Wilson, Associate Marine Biologist
primary contact for the Region 7 (Marine)
Carrie.Wilson@wildlife.ca.gov • (831) 649-7191

"There is a California Penal Code law that allows anglers to carry a gun while fishing and while hiking to and from their angling site. California Penal Code, section 12025 prohibits carrying concealed firearms in California, however, section 12027 provides the following exemption to this prohibition: “Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing expedition.”

That sounds to me like you can carry the weapon unloaded to your launch site and then have it loaded with you while fishing. Which is exactly what I've heard in the past.

Firing it is another matter. You can shoot it all you want once your three miles offshore as long as you do not fire it in a manner that endangers other people. Within three miles you could only fire it in a emergency situation. This only makes sense. You can have a loaded gun in your house but you can't walk out in your yard and discharge it without a damn good reason.

[Siebler]

Jim, If you look at the San Diego County Sheriffs No Shoot Map and their regulations they end in most cases at the edge of the Pacific Ocean. I have had numerous discussions with Game Wardens about this due to hunting Sea Ducks. They are always really awesome and just say make sure you are outside the Sheriffs No Shoot Zone and follow DFW guidelines/Laws for occupied dwellings. Shooting regulations are run by the county not the state so there is no reason that you should need to be 3 miles out (aka federal waters).

Now in addition there is obviously the issue of whistleblowers thinking they are doing right yet are being ignorant of the laws. So while it is legal to shoot as little as 150 yards off of Mission Beach it doesn't mean you are not going to end up with a huge headache over it. Both San Diego Sheriff and DFW deem over 150 yards a legal, reasonable distance from any occupied dwelling house, residence, or other building or any barn or other outbuilding inside of Unincoporated San Diego. (Section 33.101.B of the San Diego County Code of Regulatory Ordinances).


http://www.sdsheriff.net/documents/shooting_map.pdf



Mike, What tells you that you cannot carry within a certain distance of shore? There is no Map that I have ever seen saying you cant carry within a certain distance of shoreline or anything like that that I am aware of. It is all about Concealed Weapons Laws and your right to carry. The shoreline isn't a post office or a school so there should be zero issue if everything else checks out if you possess a CCW or you are using the Hunting/Fishing clause.

Now obviously If I am wrong i would love to know (and this is definitely possible). I haven't looked much into CCW stuff since I decided the run around with SD County was no longer worth it and gave up on they way they issue them. I will instead wait until i can leave this anti-firearm state to hold a CCW and in the meantime continue to use clauses such as the Place of Business and Hunting/Fishing to aid in carrying on my person.

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by Siebler

Jim, If you look at the San Diego County Sheriffs No Shoot Map and their regulations they end in most cases at the edge of the Pacific Ocean. I have had numerous discussions with Game Wardens about this due to hunting Sea Ducks. They are always really awesome and just say make sure you are outside the Sheriffs No Shoot Zone and follow DFW guidelines/Laws for occupied dwellings. Shooting regulations are run by the county not the state so there is no reason that you should need to be 3 miles out (aka federal waters).....

That makes perfect sense, Thanks for the clarification.

[alanw]

I think up to 3 miles out you are still in county (sheriff) jurisdiction, which is also state (F&G) jurisdiction. Out to 12 miles out is US (FBI) jurisdiction. From shore out to 200 miles is still US (Coast Guard) jurisdiction.

To be sure you'd have to ask the county sheriff, DFG, and the Coast Guard. Carrying and discharging are two different things. Most likely the CG would be the ones responding to a discharge call. It's likely you don't even need to use the fishing exception clause to carry/discharge outside of the 3 mile zone.

I'm not a lawyer and probably wouldn't even rely on my own opinions. The best thing to do is pay a gun lawyer for his opinion and have him on retainer.

[maui jim]

I was going to make some popcorn a couple of days ago....

[Cbad Mike]

First off I am not an attorney. Second, I am done trying to interpret gun laws in California because they are exactly that.... Open to interpretation. I promise anyone who conceals a weapon in San Diego County (including on the water) without a concealed weapons permit that they are opening themselves up for a very expensive headache and or imprisonment. Now once again... I am pro gun and believe that we all have a right to protect ourselves and I really don't care if you illegally carry or not. What I am saying is that if you decide to carry while on your kayak whether legal or not (this law is definitely open to interpretation) you better be prepared.
I regularly open carried up until a couple of years ago when it became illegal. During that time I was routinely stopped by LEOs. Sometimes, when the LEO knew the law he would do a quick load check and I'd be on my way within 2 minutes. There were other times when the LEO did not know the law and I was stopped and held at gunpoint. At this time the open carry law was 40 years old and either the LEO didn't know it (Police do not have to know the law 100% but the public does) or the LEO interpreted the law differently. The open carry law clearly stated that it was legal to open carry an unloaded firearm yet I was arrested once for illegally carrying a firearm because I did not have a magazine in my weapon which was deemed an incomplete firearm and therefore wasn't protected under the open carry law. Pretty stupid I think and I challenge anyone to find where that is written but I got handcuffed, locked up for 9 hours, and it cost me $4000 to fight the charge before it was dropped.
Anyway.... If your going to carry on a kayak based on laws that are poorly written be prepared for the worst and remember that ignorance is not a valid defense. Me personally, I do not think the potential legal issues are worth it based on the miniscule chance that I will be attacked by a shark. (I hope I didn't just jinx myself. LOL)
NOW.... if for some reason I felt the need to arm myself while on my kayak I would take a rifle or shotgun with me because they are considered UN concealable and the law that specifies that is based on physical length and there fore not open to interpretation.

PS. buy a bang stick!

Mike

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by alanw

I think up to 3 miles out you are still in county (sheriff) jurisdiction, which is also state (F&G) jurisdiction. Out to 12 miles out is US (FBI) jurisdiction. From shore out to 200 miles is still US (Coast Guard) jurisdiction.

Yup....

Traditionally territorial seas were the first three miles from shore. That was the recognized distance of jurisdiction from any nation's shore. That border for the high the "high seas" was established in general Maritime law because back in the day 3 miles was as far as a long range shore battery (canons) could still fire on a ship. During prohibition this was increased to 12 miles in the US (canons be damned) and the 1988 Territorial Sea Proclamation established the "high seas" border at 12 miles in international law.

Locally in California this three mile zone, which is still marked on the charts as "territorial seas" is now considered both formal county and state jurisdiction.

I.E. the county sheriff 's control it and can arrest you but that control is limited to three miles offshore. That's why Siebler's comments are right on the money. In the first three miles your dealing with the Sheriff's but their official California Government Code jurisdiction ONLY goes three miles offshore.

Official California state jurisdiction overlaps the same zone and it is also limited to three miles offshore except in a a “closed bay” scenario in which case the state can have more extensive jurisdiction. For example:

"The Supreme Court found in “U.S. v. California” 381 US 139, 14 L.Ed.2d 296 (1965) that Monterey Bay was a “closed bay” and thus the State of California had jurisdiction well beyond the usual 3-mile limit out to 12 miles at the middle of that Bay."

That said your far more likely to have to deal with the Sheriffs then any kind of state officials in that first three miles because they are the guys that have the boats, they patrol it on the water daily and they answer the calls.

Once again listen to Siebler he has it right. Sheriffs are the ones your dealing with if you fire your gun within three miles of the shore unless your in somewhere where you have to deal with other State or law enforcement personnel like Long Beach harbor.

Beyond that three miles is the zone of official United States sovereignty and under law this is out to 12 nautical miles from the nearest point of land including islands, and sometimes a little more in the closed bay scenario I described above. Basically no-one is going to hassle you about weapons in federal waters unless you do something really stupid. For instance a while back some guys were firing machine guns out by the San Pedro oil rigs and they got their guns confiscated even though they owned them legally and they were five miles offshore.

Beyond 12 miles is the zone of internationally recognized jurisdiction over seabed and fisheries resources. Although any nation’s ship can transit those waters under the doctrine of “freedom of the seas,” the nation with the jurisdiction may regulate fishing, seabed mining, oil drilling, and that jurisdiction extends out 200 nautical miles from the nearest point of land, including islands.

So bottom line. You can carry a unloaded gun to the launch site, and carry a loaded gun with you while kayak fishing. If your within three miles of shore your under County and State jurisdiction and you may or may not be able to fire the weapon legally depending on local ordinances and law, and if someone complains your most likely going to dealing with the County Sheriffs.

If you go out over three miles you can not only carry it but fire the weapon as much as you want as long as your not doing something stupid that endangers others.

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by Cbad Mike

First off I am not an attorney. Second, I am done trying to interpret gun laws in California because they are exactly that.... Open to interpretation. I promise anyone who conceals a weapon in San Diego County (including on the water) without a concealed weapons permit that they are opening themselves up for a very expensive headache and or imprisonment. Now once again... I am pro gun and believe that we all have a right to protect ourselves and I really don't care if you illegally carry or not. What I am saying is that if you decide to carry while on your kayak whether legal or not (this law is definitely open to interpretation) you better be prepared.

I respect your informed opinion but I think there is a difference between carrying on your person on land and on a boat.

A boat is I think essentially legally your home on the water. I used to live aboard my 27 footer in King Harbor and had loaded guns on it, at times even when it was at the slip, and most of the live a boards down there owned guns. I've run large sport-fishers where we had guns on board 24-7 and I've had both the Sheriff and Coast Guard check boats on various occasions and though they clearly saw and even occasionally asked me about guns that were onboard they never made a big deal about it.

A kayak is I believe in law the same thing as a boat. Having a loaded pistol in your center hatch should be no different then having the same loaded pistol in a 30 foot sportfishers arms locker, or in a skiffs center console.

I know a lot of people with a lot of boats that have always had guns on board. I've never heard of a single person getting in trouble or even hassled for it. In fact go to BD and ask the same question there about guns and boats and those who do know will say it's a non issue unless you are going into Mexican waters.

I hate to suggest boat owners, or the people who patrol the ocean are different then the local police or the people they deal with onshore, but when a LEO sees a gun in a vehicle onshore they think trouble where when I Coast Guard is inspecting your vessel and the see a gun on the ocean they don't think it's a issue at all.

[bubblehide]

Transporting is where they will get most offenses. And generally speaking, if you don't have a CCW or a badge, the ammo needs to be separated from the gun. And, both need to be in locked containers, one of which can be the glove box (if it locks). If in a car, they need to be separated, as one locked in a locked container in the trunk, the other in the cab of the car. If in an SUV, it is advised that both be in separate locked containers in the farthest back (rear) compartment.


With all the overlapping laws, and jurisdictions, some things can get pretty complicated, so much so that many cops aren't sure themselves. However, knowing the hierarchy of jurisdiction, and how superseding works, it's manageable, i.e., the feds set the minimum, local and state agencies can go above and beyond the feds regulations, but can not have less. A state agency's laws/regulations supersede local government...

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by bubblehide

Transporting is where they will get most offenses. And generally speaking, if you don't have a CCW or a badge, the ammo needs to be separated from the gun. And, both need to be in locked containers, one of which can be the glove box (if it locks). If in a car, they need to be separated, as one locked in a locked container in the trunk, the other in the cab of the car. If in an SUV, it is advised that both be in separate locked containers in the farthest back (rear) compartment..

Yeah you're far more likely to get in trouble walking a unloaded weapon from the car to your yak in Malibu then when you are actually carrying it loaded on your kayak while fishing there.

Weird but True

[alanw]

Originally Posted by bubblehide

Transporting is where they will get most offenses. And generally speaking, if you don't have a CCW or a badge, the ammo needs to be separated from the gun. And, both need to be in locked containers, one of which can be the glove box (if it locks). If in a car, they need to be separated, as one locked in a locked container in the trunk, the other in the cab of the car. If in an SUV, it is advised that both be in separate locked containers in the farthest back (rear) compartment.

It's probably true transporting is where you will get the most offenses, and what you said is probably good advise to be overly cautious.

But, ammo does not need to be in a separate container, and it doesn't even have to be locked up. Also, it's written in the penal code that a locked container does not include the glove box. http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/16850.html

I think ammo does need to be locked in a separate container for interstate transport, but for transport within CA it doesn't.

Please see http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...p/Transporting


Anyway, looks like we should have a 3 mile out fishing party

[Siebler]

Originally Posted by Cbad Mike

First off I am not an attorney. Second, I am done trying to interpret gun laws in California because they are exactly that.... Open to interpretation. I promise anyone who conceals a weapon in San Diego County (including on the water) without a concealed weapons permit that they are opening themselves up for a very expensive headache and or imprisonment. Now once again... I am pro gun and believe that we all have a right to protect ourselves and I really don't care if you illegally carry or not. What I am saying is that if you decide to carry while on your kayak whether legal or not (this law is definitely open to interpretation) you better be prepared.
I regularly open carried up until a couple of years ago when it became illegal. During that time I was routinely stopped by LEOs. Sometimes, when the LEO knew the law he would do a quick load check and I'd be on my way within 2 minutes. There were other times when the LEO did not know the law and I was stopped and held at gunpoint. At this time the open carry law was 40 years old and either the LEO didn't know it (Police do not have to know the law 100% but the public does) or the LEO interpreted the law differently. The open carry law clearly stated that it was legal to open carry an unloaded firearm yet I was arrested once for illegally carrying a firearm because I did not have a magazine in my weapon which was deemed an incomplete firearm and therefore wasn't protected under the open carry law. Pretty stupid I think and I challenge anyone to find where that is written but I got handcuffed, locked up for 9 hours, and it cost me $4000 to fight the charge before it was dropped.
Anyway.... If your going to carry on a kayak based on laws that are poorly written be prepared for the worst and remember that ignorance is not a valid defense. Me personally, I do not think the potential legal issues are worth it based on the miniscule chance that I will be attacked by a shark. (I hope I didn't just jinx myself. LOL)
NOW.... if for some reason I felt the need to arm myself while on my kayak I would take a rifle or shotgun with me because they are considered UN concealable and the law that specifies that is based on physical length and there fore not open to interpretation.

PS. buy a bang stick!

Mike

Mike I am 100% in the same boat as you. I too open carried and was routinely checked usually without issues by the LEO (citizens calling the cops saying there was a wild gun yielding man is another story though). Most officers knew the routine and because the law was clear on it it was also easy to carry a copy of the penal code. Now days everything is a mess.

I carry when I fish certain locations and I carry when I hunt. For the most part this is the only time i carry but I would never carry while fishing an area that isnt dangerous enough to warrant the possible headache given by our states horrible gun laws as you pointed out.

I for one am more than ready to get out of this state and possess a CCW. The headache of getting it here finally had me give up after 2 years. San Diego just isnt the county to try to get a CCW in, at least not with our current sheriff. Maybe next election with make it easier, still all sorts of hoops to jump through but at least maybe our sheriff wont be anti-gun.

[lowprofile]

i love these kinds of topics.


if you feel the need to shoot a great white, your probably not going to be able to.

In california you are allowed to carry (as stated) WHILE fishing. but you cannot have it loaded while in the car or walking to and from the place. this gets kind of fuzzy when dock hoping in the bays. you have to "walk to and from" each destination and loading and unloading a fire arm before each spot change creates an "open carry" situation.

Out here in Florida they got it right. we can open carry to and from and while fishing. even while transporting our gear. and a CCP only requires an application form with a mailing address for military.

[bubblehide]

Originally Posted by alanw

It's probably true transporting is where you will get the most offenses, and what you said is probably good advise to be overly cautious.

But, ammo does not need to be in a separate container, and it doesn't even have to be locked up. Also, it's written in the penal code that a locked container does not include the glove box. http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/16850.html

I think ammo does need to be locked in a separate container for interstate transport, but for transport within CA it doesn't.

Please see http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...p/Transporting


Anyway, looks like we should have a 3 mile out fishing party

Your right about the glove box, I'm going off of memory here. The thing with Ca, is that our gun laws are in constant flux, constantly changing; usually due to the passing of bills that are not constitutional. As far as ammo needing to be locked up, I read it this past year, as being a new law; if I recall correctly. Give me some time to try and find it again, as I ma rather busy this time of year. I specifically recall reading about it, because I went out and bought a lockable ammo box specifically due to what I read. But you never know, it could had been a bill that passed one house but not the other. I'll do some digging, as I have time.

[ful-rac]

Are we still talking about this crap!

Maybe we should add a... guns and hunting section to the site...

or we should continue this conversation over at calguns....

[StinkyMatt]

Guns are bad........they hurt people.