Catch & Release Discussion

[Dan]

Do what feels right at the moment. The frozen coffers were running low and Sake steamed yellowtail with Asian chimichurri sauce and hamachi seaweed salad just seemed like the right call.

[blackcloud9]

Hi Bob, let me help you with some facts related to commercial fishing for Rockfish and Black Seabass ...... BOTH have been massively commercially harvested in the past.

Black Seabass: The fish was so heavily exploited in both California and Mexican waters that the commercial landings declined rapidly from 115 tonnes in 1932 to 5 tonnes in 1980 in California waters, whereas it decreased greatly from 363 tonnes to 12 tonnes in Mexican waters over the same period (Domeier 2001).

http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/20795/0

Rockfish: During the 1980s rockfish landings averaged 45,800 metric tons per year; peak rockfish catch occurred in 1982 when over 61,000 metric tons were landed along the US West Coast (PacFIN 2005).

See page 9 at
http://www.montereybayaquarium.org/c...fishReport.pdf



I won't even state my opinion on c&r here, but I could not let a false statement like that pass without comment.

[dsafety]

Thanks for the correction Larry. I was unaware that either of those types of fish were ever commercially fished to any degree in the coastal San Diego waters. I wonder if those fish counts came from the gill netters and long line fishers that used to ply these waters.

I have lived near the ocean all my life. This must have snuck past me somehow.

Bob

[THE DARKHORSE]

...Right into sixty pounds of ice .

[deepdvr]

One of the nicest photographs I've ever seen.

[Afran]

Originally Posted by dsafety

Thanks for the correction Larry. I was unaware that either of those types of fish were ever commercially fished to any degree in the coastal San Diego waters. I wonder if those fish counts came from the gill netters and long line fishers that used to ply these waters.

I have lived near the ocean all my life. This must have snuck past me somehow.

Bob

Google is your friend.

[lamb]

LOL Sunday Bloody Sunday...

Yani, we are turning down your nomination for a sportfisherman of the year.

What happened there, an accident?-Did that shark ran into your yak 30 mph or something'???

Josh, did yer photo biatch got the one when I was flapping with the wings? . Nice fish.

[blackcloud9]

Bob, you need to read up on California's checkered history with bottom-
trawling and gill netting, sounds like you may be familiar with the latter.

One commercial boat caught close to 2000 lb. of WSB in ONE NIGHT last
year in our local waters, on hook and line, at the kelpline. And gill nets
(outside of 3 miles) still account for more than 50,000 lbs of white
seabass each year in California - that's three more than Josh!

So, basically the numbers are staggering and I'm whole-heartedly agreeing
with all of dos ballenas, dorado50 and cioppino's great points on page one.


And in case you released all your fish ....

I recommend using the green, yellow, red seafood scale when considering
buying seafood.
http://www.montereybayaquarium.org/c...CoastGuide.pdf

[dsafety]

Originally Posted by blackcloud9

Bob, you need to read up on California's checkered history with bottom-
trawling and gill netting, sounds like you may be familiar with the latter.

One commercial boat caught close to 2000 lb. of WSB in ONE NIGHT last
year in our local waters, on hook and line, at the kelpline. And gill nets
(outside of 3 miles) still account for more than 250,000 lbs of white
seabass each year in California - that's three more than Josh!

Thanks again Larry. My education continues.

Based on the majority of the responses to this thread, it appears that my position on C & R is not the prevailing one among our little group. That surprises me, but so be it. Just having this discussion is useful because it makes each of us take a closer look at the issue. There are plenty of valid arguments on all sides and a healthy discussion like this one gives everyone the opportunity see the big picture.

Your latest post startled me a bit. I had no idea that the gill netters were still allowed to operate as close as three miles from our shores. That is well within kayak fishing range. Even more startling was your statistic regarding the size of their WSB take. If someone who cares about this stuff as much as I do is unaware of this fact, we can be fairly certain that the majority of the MLPA backers, let alone the general public have no idea that this is happening. 250,000 lbs of WSB? That is 5000, fifty pound fish. Wow!

Your comment about the commercial boat catching 2000 lbs of WSB in one night also hit me. Was that a cattle boat or some other kind of commercial boat? If those fish were caught on a commercial fishing boat, (not a cattle boat), how did they get by the three fish per person limit, (one fish during the summer)?

Cattle boat issues could be a whole new discussion. This is a free country and commercial sportfishing is a legitimate activity that has been with us forever. Most of us have enjoyed a few trips on those kinds of boats over the years. The problem is that a successful trip on most of those boats is measured by the number of fish caught. Big fish, little fish, bi-catch, it all goes into the sack. I doubt that much C & R is practiced on the party boats.

Worse, that tourist from Iowa who filled his gunny sack with 50 pounds of whatever he could catch, probably did not eat any of those fish. After a photo session, his trophies probably ended up in the trash. This is perfectly legal but, in my view, very wrong.

On the other hand, plenty of responsible fishers, just like you and I, fish from the party boats because it is their only way to enjoy this sport. They do not have access to a private boat or kayak. Lets assume for a moment that the 2000 pounds of WSB caught on the night you mentioned were landed by 25 different people all fishing from a party boat during the time of year when the WSB limit is three fish per person. Everyone had a valid fishing license and paid good money to go on this trip. On this particular night, everyone got lucky and limited out.

While some of us may not like it, this would be perfectly legal. A trip like this would make the front page of the sport section in the paper and be featured prominently in the Convention and Visitor's Bureau's sales literature. A similar take could be made by 25 yakfishers during the next squid bite. Would it be unreasonable for all of these folks on that imaginary party boat to take their legal limit of our treasured WSB? Maybe. What if the harvest was made by a bunch of yakfishers?

Comments in this thread have hashed out both sides of that question. This is a tough issue.

Bob

[Iceman]

Josh that is definitely excessive, 40 pounds of ice would suffice!

...Right into sixty pounds of ice .

[bellcon]

Josh that is definitely excessive, 40 pounds of ice would suffice!

The FWPA
frozen water protection act
would prevent such waste


Doctor Yani
did the patient survive?
love to see that pic in the middle of Tylers next slide show
(real fast .5 second subliminal message)

[Billy V]

Originally Posted by dsafety

s.
Worse, that tourist from Iowa who filled his gunny sack with 50 pounds of whatever he could catch, probably did not eat any of those fish. After a photo session, his trophies probably ended up in the trash. This is perfectly legal but, in my view, very wrong.



This is a tough issue.

Bob

Its actually illegal to waste any game fish in California, but enforcing this law is nearly impossible.

"Although there is no limit at this time on the number of Humboldt squid that can be caught, anglers should be conservation-minded and take only what they can comfortably use. Landing reports indicate that large numbers of squid are not only being caught, but also being kept. The DFG is also receiving disturbing reports of a number of fishermen actually then dumping these dead squid when returning to the docks. Not only is this unethical but it also constitutes violations of wanton waste which is willfully wasting the state's fish resources (CCR Title 14 Section 1.87.)"

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/QandA/2009/20090205.asp

[blackcloud9]

(One correction to my last post - approx 250,000 lbs of WSB is the total commercial take of
seabass annually with approx 50,000 of that taken using gillnets)

May I suggest that you read the following WSB Report Card, end to end.
There are many mind boggling statistics in the charts, and, I promise that
you will learn a lot about the fish itself.

Page 6 shows in 1959, 3.5 million pounds of WSB was taken commercially
in California!!! Thats like 140,000 25 pound fish!!

http://www.montereybayaquarium.org/c...bassReport.pdf

The boat I mentioned was a regular ol' commercial boat, one of 140 that
target white seabass in CA, not a CPFV (sportboat). A sportboat is not
licensed to catch commercially that's "sport take" not "commercial take",
and in CA, cannot be sold commercially. In other states besides CA,
things are different.

For many different reasons, the commercial guys are extremely silent
about what they catch. They catch it, and it goes to market, and they
make money. The less people that know how or when they caught fish,
the better for them. Go to the fish market, look at the fish - ever wonder
where those big WSB, and halibut come from?

BTW, Recreational catches are staggering too. Take a look at the table in
on the bottom of this page where it says "Annual Landing Totals" in black ...
http://www.sportfishingreport.com/pa...?landing_id=20

From their own counts, in 2009, this landing alone sacked:
-- 41,000 calico bass
-- 37,000 rockfish
and
-- 12,000 yellowtail.

One landing.

I'm not out to pick on commercials, sporties or anyone, just thought I may
help you understand where many others on this board are coming from, as
I thought I saw the "disconnect". Your comments welcome.

[dos ballenas]

Originally Posted by blackcloud9

For many different reasons, the commercial guys are extremely silent
about what they catch. They catch it, and it goes to market, and they
make money. The less people that know how or when they caught fish,
the better for them. Go to the fish market, look at the fish - ever wonder
where those big WSB, and halibut come from?

.

BINGO!

These guys are otw for a living. And its not a some kind of secret. The ocean is a big and very dynamic ecosystem.

Anyways, back on the cnr subject...

fwi, most thresher sharks which are tail hooked and played to exhaustion do NOT recover from the battle after being released. Different species have different survivorship rates... fact, not all fish that are released are going to survive. Even fish that swim away apparently okay die sometimes. Once again, there are many reasons why released fish may or may not survive.

And... fish that are of legal size have usually spawned once or twice. Size limits are set to insure that each fish is given a chance to reproduce. I don't think you should feel bad for harvesting a big legal fish ever.

Originally Posted by lamb

I used to be "shoot all that moves" kind of fisherman, D50 club. I'm not as "cruel" nowadays. I now like to release all bass, will let barely legal halibut live, mostly release those one year old summer YT rats.

I occasionally eat them too, it's dictated by the current situation in the fridge/freezer. I never freeze YT.

We eat it while fresh, leftovers we hand out to take care of good friends. I hear over and over how much they loved it.

A lot to be learned from this lamb guy... it aint bad getting free avocados from time to time...

For some people it takes a lot of yellowtail to realize that it don't freeze all that good!

Have fun!

[dsafety]

Larry,

Thanks again for the contining education.

One question though. Where do the recreational fish cactch numbers come from. Except for once last summer when some kid with a DFG shirt on asked me a bunch of questions about where I was fishing and what I caught, I have never been asked or reported a catch.

Assuming that I am not alone, I am curious as to where the numbers come from. Does someone just pull a number from a hat?

Bob

[blackcloud9]

Bob, Regarding recreational fish-catch counts, people that fish sportboats
are never asked because the boat and/or landing is required to provide
fish counts. Kayakers are more difficult to find, and most private boaters
are used to seeing the surveys at the launch/landing area (I believe).

And sorry, I forgot to answer your other question above regarding the
commercial guys and limits. Commercial fishermen are not regulated by
DFG "sport" limits, if any at all.

See http://www.dfg.ca.gov/marine/fishing.asp#Commercial for more info.

Larry

[dsafety]

Originally Posted by blackcloud9

Bob, Regarding recreational fish-catch counts, people that fish sportboats
are never asked because the boat and/or landing is required to provide
fish counts. Kayakers are more difficult to find, and most private boaters
are used to seeing the surveys at the launch/landing area (I believe).

And sorry, I forgot to answer your other question above regarding the
commercial guys and limits. Commercial fishermen are not regulated by
DFG "sport" limits, if any at all.

See http://www.dfg.ca.gov/marine/fishing.asp#Commercial for more info.

Larry

I know that you answered the question but if you read your answer, it seems that there are a lot of holes in the data collection techniques. Can we have any faith in the numbers that we have been presented?

Bob

[cioppino]

116_1614.jpg

Heres a good example of catch and release Bob. Unfortunately they all rushed the scuppers at the same time and failed to make it back in the water!

I love Cedros Island.

Our fisheries health starts and ends with commercial fishing. You can catch and release all you want if thats what makes YOU happy. As long as everyone follows the regs then any problem you have with it is just that, your problem.

I have made this comparison before but I will revisit it. Take a City lake for this analogy. Large mouth bass are not stocked. There is a reasonable take and size limit. They are targeted YEAR long almost everyday. Some fishermen take their limit every time, while others practice catch n release. Large mouth bass are not in danger of being over fished in these lakes. Anglers arent descimating LMB populations to the point of collapse. LMB are growing huge and their overall stocks are doing just fine.

I talk about fresh water bass fishing because it is a prime example of a controlled environment not subject to commercial fishing. It is a healthy and sustainable fishery without MLPAs and without seasonal closures.

Now lets take that same City lake and set me and my commercial gillnet boat loose in that same lake. In a matter of days you would have a fishery on the verge of collapse, one in diar need of serious regulating. What was once a ballanced and viable fishery for decades would be toast!

My final babbling point, Bob due what makes you happy. Just dont hassle someone who isnt breaking the law and is well within the state regs by taking three fish in a week. Dont fool yourself by believing releasing fish is going to bring back any fishery when those same fish get their buts kicked by commercial fishermen.

Get out there and catch some fish, you will feel a lot better.

[dsafety]

Cioppino,

You and I will continue to disagree on this subject but I respect your opinion and your right to have it. You and others have made some very valid points about the harmful affect that can come as a result of irresponsible commercial fishing activities. On that subject we are in total agreement.

I am hopeful that by starting this discussion I was not perceived to be "hassling" anyone in particular. That certainly was not my intent.

Bob