12/16 pesky lil #%^

[Iceman]

I have them placed on a list of fish I would rather not catch........just above batray and just below t shark. especially when they drag you a 1/2 mile and take up an hour of magical YT window time.

[RK]

STEVEOOO---- BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA you nailed it, I got some bendo shots of you on that one too glad you put that up so I dont even have to fuss with loading them.....

Andy--- Im on the exact same page buddy

[wade]

On your way back home up the 5, stop off at Pelly Fish Market and get a couple of their Black Sea Bass tacos...always makes me feel better after coming up empty handed at the end of a long fight ... Commercials are allowed to sell off 1 bycatch a month,..and it never tasted so good!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.pellysfish.com/

7110 Avenida Encinas # 101
Carlsbad, CA 92011-4658
(760) 431-8454

[GregAndrew]

Every once in a while you run across a BSB that will not gas-out on its own. I spent over an hour a few weeks ago working to get one back down. I had stopped carrying my vent tool, but I am going to start carrying it again as a last resort. I had at least 10 pounds of lead and heavy irons that did not even come close to taking him back down. The bigger the fish, and the deeper that it is caught, the greater the amount of air that will be in the airbladder. If it pops on its own (you will probably see bubbles coming out) they release easily, but if not they can be very difficult.

[SquidJig]

Originally Posted by old_rookie

Do they revive themselves? Or do you need to tie a 10lbs weight to put them back down?

I don't mean to plug another company, I just happened to read this article last night. I found it helpful but it seems the suggested five pounds isn't going to cut it with the BSB people have been pulling up lately.

http://charkbait.com/article/rajb3.htm

[SquidJig]

Originally Posted by Jim Day

If I'm casting and working it I prefer the JR, but I also like the 105 which is almost identical in shape but an ounce heavier.

Jim

I recently replaced an old 6x Jr and I swear the new one is heavier and definitely doesn't kick like the old one. Do 6x Jrs come in different weights? And do you really have to buy several irons to get one that swims well?

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by SquidJig

I recently replaced an old 6x Jr and I swear the new one is heavier and definitely doesn't kick like the old one. Do 6x Jrs come in different weights? And do you really have to buy several irons to get one that swims well?

OHHHHH Noooooo!!! The voodoo of the good jig myth....

I mean really who knows but as usual I have a few theories....

6XJR's are die cast, and they are still using the same molds that they always have as far as I know.

In other words the 6X you buy today should in theory be exactly the same size and therefor it should be pretty close to the weight of the ones you have purchased in the past. That said there are few variables that effect the process, and these have been debated for decades.


I don't know the exact makeup of the alloy they are using for 6XJR's but like everyone else they are buying that alloyed metal from somewhere.

They then melt it down and pour it into those same molds they have used for years. Whatever that alloy is: it's a mix of various elements each with their own weight. Simply put depending on what that exact alloy's composition is: it's weight can vary, and depending on where they bought it it probably does..

Just for an example let's use copper based alloys. Self serving on my part since I used to run a Bronze Foundry.

Silicon Bronze the stuff they make sculpture out of is mostly copper. Specifications for Everdur Bronze are 95 percent copper 4 percent silicon 1 percent Manganese. I'd call that a true silicon bronze. Herculoy another widely used bronze casting alloy is in contrast 92 percent copper, 4 percent silicon, 4 percent zinc. I don't like herculoy for a variety of reasons, and I'd say anything with zinc in it isin my opinion a form of brass.

Common yellow brass like you would see at home depot is something like 58% copper 39% zinc. Naval bronze has exactly that same ratio but has something like 1.2% percent added tin. Anything that has more then 80% copper and that contains around 4% silicon can be marketed as silicon bronze. There's C87500 which is 82% copper, C87600 89% copper, basically there is a shitload of alloys out there, all of which are technically called silicon bronze, but they are all slightly different due to the composition of the elements in the alloy.

Now as a bronze caster this was a huge issue for me. Sculptures are cast in sections. the pieces are then welded together. Zinc is not only lighter weight then copper but it's also lighter in color, so in order to keep it all the same color you have to have a matching copper content in every section cast and it also needs to be consistent in all the wire or rods used to weld them together. Once polished or patinaed I can visually tell the difference Everdur and Herculoy Silicon Bronze and if they get mixed in a project it it can totally screw everything up.

So to keep everything matching we only purchase Evedur Bronze from reliable sources. Fair enough, problem solved right...Wrong!!!

Even buying the best material from the best suppliers you still are constantly plagued with inferior alloys creeping into the process. I'm talking 10 thousand pound lots of ingot at 5 bucks a pound, you'd think it would be consistent. The fact is that it's so bad that with any given project of size we'd have to order all the metal for that project in a single order from a single supplier just not to get totally screwed.


I imagine that Salas Tady and all the local jigs are composed of alloys iron tin, zinc, and aluminum. Here's the part that applies to what I said above. Since each element in the alloy has a certain weight, and they are different weights, the ratio of the elements in the alloy in turn effect the weight of a given jig. You can have a jig poured one day, and one poured the next that are in every way identical, but the weight could vary slightly simply do to a different alloy. So even if you have people who give a damn pouring the jigs in the US you still might get varied weights simply because it's probably almost impossible to get the same alloy every time.

Anything cast outside the country and all bets are off. Trust me you never know what your going to get from outside the country.

So do jigs vary in how they act, kick or run .. yeah I'd say they do. Is it weight or alloy related.. It very well could be. It's not really just the weight it's the Relative density, or specific gravity in relation to the displaced water, and the jigs shape that make it swim.

Surface Irons are just lighter alloys then deep drop jigs, and therefore shaped different then deep drop irons in order to swim.

Every jig made will swim best with a specific mass to displacement ratio, and for each there is a specific alloy that will hit that sweet spot.

For instance I love tady 45's but every once in a while you get one that won't run right at all, that just keeps planing to the surface. On the other hand every once in a while you get one that is just absolutley amazing. Most of them are somewhere in between. I've also seen surface Iron that were some of them were super brittle and that would snap in half if you dropped them on the deck, but then others were indestructible. I'd say those things are likely alloy related.

Alloy aside.... If you look at your 6XJR's you'll notice that the hook rings are not all the same shape or size, that they all vary slightly do to the fact they were done by hand. Even little things like ring shape could in theory effect action.

That said it still sometime seems to be the luck of the draw.

Like I said who knows... For me with jigs I just pick them up bounce them around in my hand to check if the weight feels right, then look at the rings to see if they are round and if it looks and feels OK I buy it. I mean WTF it's more guesswork then brain surgery

If you find one that's runs well.... well... fish the shit out of it. If they run like crap.... well I call those loaners and gifts around here

Jim

[james92026]

I hope I never catch one! Heck, I do not even see how I could release one without tipping over or maybe I am just gun shy from my recent open ocean flip over, I still intend to take a lesson or two from Mr. Sammons when the weather warms a bit. (at least I bought some breathable waders in anticipation).

[steveooo]

Originally Posted by SquidJig

I recently replaced an old 6x Jr and I swear the new one is heavier and definitely doesn't kick like the old one. Do 6x Jrs come in different weights? And do you really have to buy several irons to get one that swims well?

You may have had a 6XJR Lite. 6XJr's used to come in lite and heavy. Not sure if they still make the lites though, I haven't seen any in stores lately. I still have one 6XJR lite that I got as a handout @ the Moyer tourney 2 years ago. The lites are about 1/2 the weight of the heavies. They are the same exact shape, and have no markings to indicate the difference. Same with the 6X's, they both come in heavy and lite. I got a few 6X lites at the Moyer tourney this year.

As far as picking a jig that swims, I think it has to more with the shape than the weight, plus a few other factors like the size of the hole where the ring attaches. Yes, they are die cast, but there are multiple molds, and die-casting can be very inconsistent. Each mold is slightly different, and true iron purists know what to look for. I'm no purist.

If you care, here is a vid I don't have the patience to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_-KH438lFY

Here is a pic of some of my jigs. From the left, the 1st, 3rd and 5th jigs are lites, the 2nd, 4th, and 6th jigs are heavies.

No huge difference in shapes in the similar irons. Some have bigger holes, some have more tapered ends, and some have sharper edges on the topside, but nothing major. Only big different is that the lites are about 1/2 the weight. This is intentional, not due to accidental variations in the alloy mix. The 5th jig has some slough metal on the back, a perfect example of the slight differences that can happen in die-casting.





I like the Sumo Jr or Tady 4/0 as a deadstick, and the salas 6X Jr as a Yo-Yo.

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by steveooo

From the left, the 1st, 3rd and 5th jigs are lites, the 2nd, 4th, and 6th jigs are heavies...... Only big different is that the lites are about 1/2 the weight. This is intentional, not due to accidental variations in the alloy mix. The 5th jig has some slough metal on the back, a perfect example of the slight differences that can happen in die-casting.

Cool stuff!!!

You can tell just by looking at the lettering that the the lights and heavies were poured in different molds.

Well you got me Stevooo..... I honestly I had no idea that Salas poured lite versions of the 6XJR in a lighter alloy. I only use the heavy ones, and when I checked mine all the same weight and from the same mold.

If the lites are half the weight, then obviously they are made from another alloy. So I was on the right track even if I had no idea they intentionally cast different versions of the jig in different alloys.

Wow half the weight... Hows the action? You would think it with that difference in weight it wouldn't be that hard to tell them apart.

Now you got me wondering if the previous "good" jig he had was actually a lite version, or just a slightly different heavy version with better action.

As to what I posted about inconsistency in casting alloys: I stick to my guns. I mean I've seen hundreds of thousands of pounds of metal poured, poured much of it myself, and I can guarantee you that even when buying the best metal from the best suppliers your always going to find variations in batches of any given alloy.

As you say there are a ton of variables involved in casting, how hot you pour, how clean your equipment is, oxides, slag, shrink, chasing and cleanup etc.... trust me I have seen it all, but I'd still say that discrepancy in alloy composition explains a lot of the variations I have seen over the years.

Like I said about stock Tady45's once in a while you get one that won't run right at all, sometimes you get one that is just absolutley amazing, and most of them are somewhere in between. I've sat there more then once looking at two absolutely identical T45's one that ran great and one the did not run right at all and thought WTF....Just based on my experience it would not surprise me at all if slight variations in the casting alloy could of caused that inconsistency.

Honestly the biggest Jig mystery to me is why the hell did Tady change the original TLC from the killer anchovy sized swimmer to the fat little thing it is now? The original was such a good Albacore and Bluefin jig!!! WTF were they thinking!!!

Steveoo you seem to know a lot more about jigs then me. I'd love to hear the history and rational about that one

Jim

[GregAndrew]

Another difference between jigs of the same type is that there is not one mold that produces them, but several or many of them. If they poured them one at a time you would not see racks of them in all tackle stores.

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by GregAndrew

Another difference between jigs of the same type is that there is not one mold that produces them, but several or many of them. If they poured them one at a time you would not see racks of them in all tackle stores.

It all depends how you define one or single Greg.

A single cavity die is a mold that makes only one object per pour. You rarely see those kind of molds or dies in the casting industry. Like you say they are inefficient because they only make one object at a time.

Technically the molds used for this type of casting are called dies and they are two part (or more) molds made by machinists or more precisely mold makers out of alloy tool steel, and in this case what you have is a multiple cavity mold. Evan though it's probably still just a simple two part die, it's still a die where a single pour produces multiple numbers of identical jigs.

In order to get that die they took an original 6XJR (a "blank") that they wanted cast to a mold maker, and then specified how many pieces they wanted the die to produce. That mold maker then made the die exactly duplicating the blank for each cavity space or piece unit in the mold.

Mold making is serious business, the guys that do it really know their shit, and a good mold maker will duplicate that original blank within thousandths of an inch for each piece in the mold.. Any flaws or idiosyncrasies in the blank will end up in every single one of them so you better make sure the blank is correct before you ever give it to the mold maker.


Take a look at the bigger 6X jigs in this picture.




Now looking at those bigger 6X jigs I see two distinct separate production runs or dies.

With the first die the blank was probably made from metal, steel brass or aluminum. To put the lettering on it they took a set of letter/number stamps which are essentually hand held punches and smacked the "6X SALAS" in with a hammer. Now because the punches were hand held the Salas in not perfectly straight, and it looks like they double struck the X creating a flaw in it.

When they took that blank to the mold maker he faithfully duplicated those exact letter flaws into every single cavity in the die so every jig that comes from that die has those exact same letter flaws.

Now look at the other 6X's lettering. Those letters are perfect because it was made with a different die. With that die they had a machinist machine the letters into the blank so they are perfect and straight. So when they took that blank to the mold maker to have the die made he faithfully duplicated those exact letters into every single cavity in the mold so every jig that comes from that mold has those exact same machined looking letters.

I imagine the first die is the earlier model, and that the first blank was simply hand made.

The second is the later die when they had more money to spare and wanted to make superior die for a cleaner more professional looking product. They probably hired a machinist to make that second blank, so naturally the lettering is machined rather then stamped.

I also find it interesting that the lighter 6x jigs were poured with the older mold which makes perfect sense to me, since they no longer make them, and even the lite 6XJR pictured has hand stamped letters, suggesting once again it's an old jig from an early production run.

How old are they? who knows? I certainly don't. Salas jigs have been around forever, they probably updated their dies years ago.

Just for fun I dug through some of my older jigs and found two jigs with the older hand stamped letters. A really old 7X lite I no longer fish, and an ancient heavy 6X with those exact same letter flaws as Stevooos.



They just don't make them like that any more....

So at any rate when I said the same mold, I was not suggesting they came from a same single cavity in a mold where only one thing is produced like a sinker mold but instead a multi cavity die or dies where all the pieces created by those dies are identical because they all came from or were derived from the same original blank.

In casting we think of these like generations. A first generation object would come from a original die created from the original blank, subsequent generations are those from a die made from a different blank, or dies made from a blank derived from a first generation casting. They could of and probably did make multiple dies off each blank, but all the jigs they produced from those dies would still be virtually identical or of the same generation if that makes any sense.

Think of die like an upside down tree where the trunk is open and each leaf is a jig. The metal pours in the trunk then flows down into the leaves (jigs) through the branches (sprues), and though there are many leaves (jigs), they are all pretty much identical, because they were all created from the same pattern. It doesn't matter how many trees you have, or even how many leaves are on the trees, as long as the leaves are patterned from the same blank they are essentually from the same mold.

Jim

[bigbarrels]

Congrats Andy! Sure beats this type of morning workout

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWng0Equoe0

[james92026]

Hey..my gf has one of those (or I think thats what it is)...

Originally Posted by bigbarrels

Congrats Andy! Sure beats this type of morning workout

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWng0Equoe0

[GregAndrew]

My point was that it is not likely that the makers paid high dollar for the fine mold making that you refer to (they are not producing these for rocket sceintists). I don't think the inventer went to the casting maker and told him "After years of shaving and adding thousandths of an inch here and there, I have finally made the perfect jig. Now I need you to reproduce it exactly to within 1/10,000 of an inch". On the contrary, I would bet that they were generally happy with the way there jig shape swam, and wanted to get it to market. On closer examination of the same jigs, you can see differences between the 2 Lite 6Xs (jigs #3 and #5). The holes on either end of the one on the left are larger than the one on the right. There is also a difference in the Ss on either end of "SALAS".

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by GregAndrew

My point was that it is not likely that the makers paid high dollar for the fine mold making that you refer to (they are not producing these for rocket sceintists)

The die making process is by it's nature is accurate, as the whole point, the whole reason the process exists, is to make a mold that produces an accurate duplication of the product in mass. I mean they cast carb bodies and all kinds of things this way. This type of project would be a piece of cake to a die-maker, a real no brainer. There is no way they would screw it up if they knew what they were doing. Basically anyone with enough skill to make the die is going to make an accurate die with a project like this one.

Originally Posted by GregAndrew

On closer examination of the same jigs, you can see differences between the 2 Lite 6Xs (jigs #3 and #5). The holes on either end of the one on the left are larger than the one on the right. There is also a difference in the Ss on either end of "SALAS".

Holes are notorious for flash where a small amount of metal seeps out and fills the space, I imagine they have to drill those out and clean them out during the chasing phase. Having done a shitload of chasing I imagine that those holes vary in size do to available tooling..LOL

In other words they probably use whatever drill bit they have sitting around that's still sharp at any given moment, on any given day.

With any kind of casting the chasing (cleanup) always creates idiosyncrasies, but that's not a reflection of the mold so much as the hand of whoever is doing the cleanup. It's a constant battle with chasers, they love to use their tools, and sometimes it's hard to convince them that less is more, as the less you chase (sand, drill or grind off) the more of the original remains.

I think those discrepancies your seeing in the S can be attributed to thickness in finish. To me it's rather obvious the finish is a built up a little thicker on the left side of the number five jig where it's more even on three. Essentially human error. That buildup was caused by someone spraying it multiple times trying to get the color break right on that side.

You can see the another thickness of finish issue in the new mold number two jig where the J in JR almost disappears because it tends to fill in. That's a design flaw, when they figured out the letter placement they did not take into account the sag in the thicker finishes during curing.

That exact issues shows up in the majority of jigs cast from that mold. Since they cure them front up the J being the highest letter takes a hit.

Jim

[roadx]

according to Brandon Hayward in his book getting bit.
"surface irons are sand cast and ground down by hand. where as yo yo irons are die cast and do not need grinding.
essentially thats the mayor difference between yo yo and surface irons"

also yo yo's are zink and surface is aluminum alloys

[SquidJig]

Thanks a lot guys for the great info on irons. I believe my old 6x Jr was inherited from my dad so it was probably one of the old light versions. Good to know I'm not nuts. Bad to know it won't be easy replacing it.

I believe I recently glanced through a copy of the book roadx quoted from. The author said he could tell which irons would swim well just by looking at them. If I remember correctly, he said the sharper the edges, the better they swim. The variation came from the hand finishing. I'll have to keep that in mind the next time I buy an iron.

But back to Iceman's topic. I caught my first BSB Sunday. SOB towed me way off the squid grounds and wrecked my rod holding arm. I hope that's the last one I ever pull on. Here's a tip I learned the hard way. If the air bladder ruptures and is venting on its own, (my BSB was 'farting'), work quick to unhook it or cut the leader. I wasted time videoing the fish. By the time I realized what was happening, it sank and there was nothing I could do to stop it. I finally had to cut my line to keep from losing even more spectra. I'll be glad when they move out of the area.

Tight lines ... but no BSB!

[dorado50]

So good swimming jigs off the shelf should 1) have off centered top hole 2)uneven (non-conforming) edges 3)non-binding hook that is attached to the ring???. Thats the way I make my iron purchases

[SquidJig]

Ooops! I didn't see dorado50's post. But I still want to plug the video. The guys who made it did a great job.

Originally Posted by steveooo

If you care, here is a vid I don't have the patience to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_-KH438lFY

This is a great video, steveooo. Thanks for the link.

Key things to look for: uneven 'hips', the wide points of the jig and big or off-center front holes. Hold the iron by the ring and swing it around in a circle. It should swing smoothly and evenly. If the front hole isn't quite right, jam a tool into it and offset the hole. There's also a lot of other good info in the video about types of irons and techniques. Definitely worth 14 minutes of anyone's time.