Children's Pool - Kayak Fishing Adventures on Big Water’s Edge

PB fisher · 02-17-2009, 06:51 PM

I did not have time to make the meeting today? Anyone know how it went??

dsafety · 02-17-2009, 07:37 PM

I just heard the news report. It did not go our way. This is not yet a done deal but it appears that the City Council caved to the people who think cute seals are more important than our cute children.

I grew up in La Jolla and the CP was my favorite place to go as a young kid. I could swim, snorkel and climb the rocks searching for sea creatures. All within a very safe confined space under the watchful eyes of the Lifeguards. Everything that makes this place an ideal kayak launching spot makes it perfect for families with young children.

The fact that the seals and those who love them have stolen this treasure from our kids is a tragedy. Unfortunately only those of us who had the opportunity to enjoy this unique place in the past will truely understand what may be taken away from future generations.

It is highly unlikely that the CP will ever be made available as a kayak launching spot, (search some of my previous posts for details if you are interested). With that battle lost, I am hopeful that reason will prevail as the battle over the CP approaches its climax.

Bob

Billy V · 02-17-2009, 07:52 PM

Its not over yet. They will have to undo one of the most powerful legal documents a person could create, a Trust, and or a Last Will and Testament.

It doesn't matter what the city wants, the decree made in the Trust is clear, and the law is on the side of the Trust.

The City Council is not a Superior Court, nor are any of them Judges.
-----------------------------------------
As a side note
I would not want to go against the resources of the Scripps Family, and could only imagine how much money it will cost the City to defend against a law suit for "Breach of Trust" brought by the Scripps Family.

The CP could possibly revert back to the heirs if the Trust and its intentions were violated.

All the city did was hand off this mess to the Superior Court.

2 cents.

dsafety · 02-17-2009, 09:56 PM

Billy, that was worth easily 4 cents. I just hope you are right.

Bob

PB fisher · 02-18-2009, 07:32 PM

Good point on the trust being the last will and testament. I agree.

Does the city realize it is called the children's pool?

prowlerdude · 02-18-2009, 08:09 PM

Once again our elected officials refused to make any decision and dumped it on the State. Just like the booze ban (sending it to the voters). Anything remotely controversial that could cost them future votes down the road is taboo.

To vote against the seals - anti green
To vote for the seals - anti children, recreation and business (these nuts are for extending the MLPA to freaking china).

Politicians are only in it for themselves and their futures..

Sorry for the rant

Podaker · 02-18-2009, 10:04 PM

this is not a natural habitat for the seals, before humans built a safe area for their "children" to play mountain lions, bears, wolfs, coyotes, and other predators, would stalk hunt and kill/eat the seals. that is why they normally live on rocks away from harm. why don't the seals hang out at the shores, windansea, blacks, marine st, the cove????? possibly people/predators. (i'm confused)

dgax65 · 02-18-2009, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PB fisher

Good point on the trust being the last will and testament. I agree.

Does the city realize it is called the children's pool?

During the public testimony, I noticed that the seal huggers were very careful to call it Casa Beach instead of Children's Pool. They don't even want to concede that it has been used as a swimming area for children for decades.

cioppino · 03-13-2009, 09:51 AM

We all know that the city voted to keep the seals and amend the trust. Only our La Jolla rep Sherri Lightner wanted to get rid of the pollution and seals. Now we have to hope the Scripps family does what it promised and sues the crap out of our moronic city. Unfortunately its our money not the council members that will be wasted in all this. Anyway this thing is far from over. Just read this in the opinion section. Gives a bit of insight as to where they are going next.
Here is a quote by one of the Seal Huggers Robert Johnson. The group is now going after La Jolla Cove.

"We want La Jolla Cove designated as California sea lion habitat. We want lifeguards to stop chasing the sea lions off the Cove beach in the mornings and we want a rope erected to protect the area of the beach where the sea lions congregate in the mornings.
If the city council is to declare Casa beach as harbor seal habitat, we want the same done at the La Jolla Cove for the California sea lions. We thank Scripps Institution of Oceanography researchers for the help they have given us on this project."

They want it all for their use only. This group is of the same mindset as the MLPA wackos, they do not like fisherman or people for that matter. Its amazing the lies they try and get over on the public. The Srcipps family does not support the use of the Childrens Pool/Casa Beach as a seal rookery. They have threatened to sue the city over this issue, not support it.

The fact that the MLPAs and the Childrens pool issue are coming at us at the same time only shows how organized and motivated these environwackos are. We gotta do more!

Tman · 03-13-2009, 11:08 AM

"Can you legally hunt and kill sea lions?"

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker

I live in Alaska. The answer is a great big YES. It just floors me that 18 so called 'Experts' here at YA have no clue. Why did they even bother answering if they did not know the answer? Duh.

Both Alaskan and Canadian native peoples can legally hunt these animals. They are required to use all parts of the animal - which they have always done in the past - but it is part of the current Marine Mamal Protection Act verbage.

Under the MMPA indigenous people can hunt seals, walrus etc providing the use the meat and hide. Frequently the meat is eaten locally, the hides are tanned and used to make a number of expensive, and very pretty, waterproof garments. The skulls, tusks and teeth are ivory - this is where current ivory comes from for scrimshaw and other artistic uses - like musical instruments.

Seals, harbor and Stellar, and walrus population in Alaska and Canada are not in any peril. Although big scale harvesting has been stopped - only because of the decline in the fur market - we are close getting to the stage where the government might have to intervine and cull the populations at tax payer expense for the greater good of the animals well being.

What goes around - comes around. People don't like killing seals - so they don't buy seal products. Now your tax money will soon be going to killing seals so they do not overpopulate their habitat. Yup - those tree huggers are one smart group - good thing they don't pay taxes - so they can have a clean conscious.

Here' the link... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...1154458AAkgReT

Anybody have any Alaskan friends/relatives who want to come for a visit?

dorf · 03-13-2009, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tman

"Can you legally hunt and kill sea lions?"

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker

I live in Alaska. The answer is a great big YES. It just floors me that 18 so called 'Experts' here at YA have no clue. Why did they even bother answering if they did not know the answer? Duh.

Both Alaskan and Canadian native peoples can legally hunt these animals. They are required to use all parts of the animal - which they have always done in the past - but it is part of the current Marine Mamal Protection Act verbage...

Anybody have any Alaskan friends/relatives who want to come for a visit?

From reading this I would understand that it is in Alaska only.
If it is legal here in California you would think that someone from Viejas would look at this as a gold mine for the Casino/Outlet Mall. They could open a jewlery shop with all of the ivory harvested in La Jolla. I would buy a pair of sealskin waders. And BBQ Seal on a stick sounds mighty tasty.

Zed · 03-13-2009, 11:30 AM

Not legal "hunting" but legal culling in OR.
http://marinelife.about.com/b/2009/0...-in-oregon.htm

Money talks. The Humane Society is pretty big but they came up short against the salmon lobby and a Fed judge.

edit, to specify the difference. Cp = seals OR = sea lions. But you knew that.

TXyakker · 03-13-2009, 03:12 PM

This stuff just makes me angry.

I'm getting ready to move back to Texas for my next set of orders, and as much as i'm going to miss the fishing in La Jolla chasing

, I'm so happy to get out of this state and away from these kind of people. I just dont get how people become so dumb and brainwashed to think the way they do, I wish natural selection worked a little more in our favor....

I mean, seals/animals are waaaaaaay more important than people, so we should just let them take over where we like to hang out right?

prowlerdude · 03-13-2009, 05:10 PM

Humane Society of the USA has been associated with eco-terrorists. So has the head of the save the seals. Gonna be funny someday when this washes out and all the politicians that cozzied up to them are hung out to dry. Google these kooks...

http://www.activistcash.com/organiza...ew.cfm?oid=136

http://www.activistcash.com/organiza...iew.cfm?oid=21

http://www.activistcash.com/biography.cfm?bid=3247

http://arfacts.wordpress.com/2008/04...rting-killers/

dsafety · 03-13-2009, 08:09 PM

TXYakker's comment got my juices stiring. +

I consider myself an environmentalist, but I totally agree with his point of view on this subject. The problem is that whenever people take up an extreme position, on just about any issue, they get out of touch with the majority. Sure, there are some occasions when a small minority of vocal people with a minority view can convince the majority to the wisdom of their point of view and change the world. The public's change in their support for the Vietnam and Iraq wars over time are good examples of the kind of changes that dedicated advocates can accomplish if their mission is righteous.

The idea of settting aside traditional swimming beaches in La Jolla for the use of seals, (not native to the area, by the way), that were rescued by Sea World, simply does not past the reasonability test. Our politicians are so obcessed with winning re-election, that most of them rarely turn their brain on when it comes to sensitive issues. The simply wet their fingers and stick them in the air to see which way the popular winds are blowing.

I was a lifeguard at both the Casa and the Cove years ago when people, (remember them), were the main visitors at these beaches. It would be a very sad day indeed if human usage of these two treasures is forbidden. I, for one, would happily join the revolution to overthrow those who make these kinds of stupid decisions.

Bob

FISHIONADO · 03-13-2009, 08:14 PM

I'm a conservationist, not a preservationist, typically. However, on this particular topic I have a different point of view from most of the anti-seal people. I raised my kids in La Jolla and we never went to the children's pool even when it was open. La Jolla Shores and Scripps were always so much better. If you ask the children to vote they would choose to let the seals stay. Every day there are hundreds of people and lots of kids who enjoy watching the seals. Not many people really used the children's pool when it was open. I definitely support keeping the north kelp open for recreational fishing but I don't really care what happens to the children's pool. We have so many right-wing take all for profit types we need some left-wing save the earth types to balance things out. Without the Sierra Club Yosemite would be full of condos, Chili's, and Starbucks. Peace all.

cioppino · 03-13-2009, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FISHIONADO

I'm a conservationist, not a preservationist, typically. However, on this particular topic I have a different point of view from most of the anti-seal people. I raised my kids in La Jolla and we never went to the children's pool even when it was open. La Jolla Shores and Scripps were always so much better. If you ask the children to vote they would choose to let the seals stay. Every day there are hundreds of people and lots of kids who enjoy watching the seals. Not many people really used the children's pool when it was open. I definitely support keeping the north kelp open for recreational fishing but I don't really care what happens to the children's pool. We have so many right-wing take all for profit types we need some left-wing save the earth types to balance things out. Without the Sierra Club Yosemite would be full of condos, Chili's, and Starbucks. Peace all.

Fishanado, this isnt about being anti seal. Its about taking away our rights to a public beach that was trusted to the Children of this city. You want someone fucking with your will or trust? What good is a legal document if eight dipshits from the city can just re-write it to suit their needs.

My relatives are fortunate enough to live near the cross. I was up there visiting today and my Uncle mentioned to me how upset his neighbor was that Sherri Lightner voted to get rid of the seals. Apparently when Lightner was campaining her initial reaction was to support the seals and now that she actuals understands the issue she supports the Children. Anyhow this wacko rich ass single lady with no kids is also planning on leaving all, and all is a lot, of her money to help save stray fucking cats. How about helping out stray starving human beings. Crazy wacked out loaner and her cats. Pathetic.

Oh well I get to take out all my frustrations on the sweet little furbags in Alaska. I commercial fish there for a month each year. Any seal comes and fucks with our gear and its time to break out the SKS. Damn things are a lot harder to hit than you would think. We do get a few now and then as do the other commercial guys. Funny how the seal population up there is just fine. Only difference is they tend be a lot more boat shy.

Tman · 03-13-2009, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FISHIONADO

I raised my kids in La Jolla and we never went to the children's pool even when it was open. La Jolla Shores and Scripps were always so much better. If you ask the children to vote they would choose to let the seals stay. Every day there are hundreds of people and lots of kids who enjoy watching the seals. Not many people really used the children's pool when it was open.

Good to hear something like that from a local.
Fact is, seals never used to be around there. I respect your comments, though I tend to disagree simply for the fact that, as the adage goes, give someone an inch and they'll take a mile.

When I used to frequent CP, no seals and plenty of kids. Plus the added beauty of the diversity since you had small reefs mixed with sand bottom created an opportunity to view anything from small sharks, bugs, to calicos.

I don't know how old your kids were, I used to take chicas there who never knew the beauty below them, and most of these girls were lifeguards!

Now, as a parent of a future waterman, I always hoped to be able to take him snorkeling early at a place that would allow him to view the sea with no aggression, fish that were not skittish, a place with diversity, different structure, and not a flat sandy bottom.

I guess the thing that irritates me more than anything is not only the thought that my son will never be able to see CP as I saw it before, the sea life, alive, fish everywhere, but that a single person had the vision to make it a safe haven for children, spent her money and time to create it, only to have a group come along with no regard for the beauties and bounties of our oceans, who just want to sit out of the way, with binos and cameras, and marvel at these creatures on the sand, not knowing the true destruction they've created in the water, the polluted waters, and the loss of fish and habitat, that will take years to recover.

It's funny, and very sad, that these same people, had they spent the time to enjoy the undersea life, the feeling of cold ocean water in the morning, the soothing feeling of the water on a hot day, replenishing, the euphoric feeling of swimming with the denizens of the ocean and to marvel at their beauty, again, had they spent the time to enjoy this side of nature, I don't think they would want the seals there and would realize the destruction they are causing.

To them, the beauty is standing on the ledges, the looking spots, and watching the seals on the sand, frolicking in the ocean. They aren't in the water, or on the water, to see where the real beauty lies. Nor are they able to see the destruction caused over a few years' time....

Tman · 03-13-2009, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cioppino

Fishanado, this isnt about being anti seal. Its about taking away our rights to a public beach that was trusted to the Children of this city. You want someone fooking with your will or trust? What good is a legal document if eight dipshits from the city can just re-write it to suit their needs.

wow....very well said, even better than mine.

Trusted to the children of this city. By someone who spent alot of their MONEY and TIME to make this happen.

Look at it this way...

A great, beautiful building that holds many, many treasures, be they art or books, is not structurally sound. But the treasures inside cannot be removed.

Do you still admire the beauty of the building, knowing it will soon collapse and the treasures inside will be lost, or do you find a way to repair the building so the treasures inside could still be seen as they were meant to be?

FISHIONADO · 03-14-2009, 08:40 AM

Not many people used the Children's Pool when it was open. A few senior citizens in speedos was all I ever saw there. Now hundreds of people visit it every day. The children want the seals, ask them. This is just a silly issue for talk radio to rant about. Seals not native to San Diego? Planted there by Sea World? Got data to back that up?

I hope we can have these debates without people reducing it to name calling and foul language.

02-17-2009, 06:51 PM	#1
PB fisher feeesh Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Carlsbad Posts: 61	Children's Pool I did not have time to make the meeting today? Anyone know how it went??

02-17-2009, 07:52 PM	#3
Billy V Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bay Ho Posts: 1,382	Its not over yet. They will have to undo one of the most powerful legal documents a person could create, a Trust, and or a Last Will and Testament. It doesn't matter what the city wants, the decree made in the Trust is clear, and the law is on the side of the Trust. The City Council is not a Superior Court, nor are any of them Judges. ----------------------------------------- As a side note I would not want to go against the resources of the Scripps Family, and could only imagine how much money it will cost the City to defend against a law suit for "Breach of Trust" brought by the Scripps Family. The CP could possibly revert back to the heirs if the Trust and its intentions were violated. All the city did was hand off this mess to the Superior Court. 2 cents. Last edited by Billy V; 02-17-2009 at 09:41 PM.

03-13-2009, 11:08 AM	#10
Tman BRTF...bought & paid... Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,247	Question posed on Yahoo Answers... "Can you legally hunt and kill sea lions?" Best Answer - Chosen by Asker I live in Alaska. The answer is a great big YES. It just floors me that 18 so called 'Experts' here at YA have no clue. Why did they even bother answering if they did not know the answer? Duh. Both Alaskan and Canadian native peoples can legally hunt these animals. They are required to use all parts of the animal - which they have always done in the past - but it is part of the current Marine Mamal Protection Act verbage. Under the MMPA indigenous people can hunt seals, walrus etc providing the use the meat and hide. Frequently the meat is eaten locally, the hides are tanned and used to make a number of expensive, and very pretty, waterproof garments. The skulls, tusks and teeth are ivory - this is where current ivory comes from for scrimshaw and other artistic uses - like musical instruments. Seals, harbor and Stellar, and walrus population in Alaska and Canada are not in any peril. Although big scale harvesting has been stopped - only because of the decline in the fur market - we are close getting to the stage where the government might have to intervine and cull the populations at tax payer expense for the greater good of the animals well being. What goes around - comes around. People don't like killing seals - so they don't buy seal products. Now your tax money will soon be going to killing seals so they do not overpopulate their habitat. Yup - those tree huggers are one smart group - good thing they don't pay taxes - so they can have a clean conscious. Here' the link... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...1154458AAkgReT Anybody have any Alaskan friends/relatives who want to come for a visit? __________________ Adios Tman Gaffer for Clay the Fishcatcher

03-13-2009, 11:30 AM	#12
Zed BANNED Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: W of 5 Posts: 1,265	Not legal "hunting" but legal culling in OR. http://marinelife.about.com/b/2009/0...-in-oregon.htm Money talks. The Humane Society is pretty big but they came up short against the salmon lobby and a Fed judge. edit, to specify the difference. Cp = seals OR = sea lions. But you knew that. __________________ Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Give a fish a man and he'll eat for a week.

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02-17-2009, 07:37 PM	#2
dsafety Olivenhain Bob Join Date: May 2008 Location: Olivenhain, CA Posts: 1,121	I just heard the news report. It did not go our way. This is not yet a done deal but it appears that the City Council caved to the people who think cute seals are more important than our cute children. I grew up in La Jolla and the CP was my favorite place to go as a young kid. I could swim, snorkel and climb the rocks searching for sea creatures. All within a very safe confined space under the watchful eyes of the Lifeguards. Everything that makes this place an ideal kayak launching spot makes it perfect for families with young children. The fact that the seals and those who love them have stolen this treasure from our kids is a tragedy. Unfortunately only those of us who had the opportunity to enjoy this unique place in the past will truely understand what may be taken away from future generations. It is highly unlikely that the CP will ever be made available as a kayak launching spot, (search some of my previous posts for details if you are interested). With that battle lost, I am hopeful that reason will prevail as the battle over the CP approaches its climax. Bob

02-17-2009, 09:56 PM	#4
dsafety Olivenhain Bob Join Date: May 2008 Location: Olivenhain, CA Posts: 1,121	Billy, that was worth easily 4 cents. I just hope you are right. Bob

02-18-2009, 07:32 PM	#5
PB fisher feeesh Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Carlsbad Posts: 61	Good point on the trust being the last will and testament. I agree. Does the city realize it is called the children's pool?

02-18-2009, 08:09 PM	#6
prowlerdude Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Clairemont Posts: 116	Once again our elected officials refused to make any decision and dumped it on the State. Just like the booze ban (sending it to the voters). Anything remotely controversial that could cost them future votes down the road is taboo. To vote against the seals - anti green To vote for the seals - anti children, recreation and business (these nuts are for extending the MLPA to freaking china). Politicians are only in it for themselves and their futures.. Sorry for the rant

02-18-2009, 10:04 PM	#7
Podaker Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: la jolla shores Posts: 86	this is not a natural habitat for the seals, before humans built a safe area for their "children" to play mountain lions, bears, wolfs, coyotes, and other predators, would stalk hunt and kill/eat the seals. that is why they normally live on rocks away from harm. why don't the seals hang out at the shores, windansea, blacks, marine st, the cove????? possibly people/predators. (i'm confused)

03-13-2009, 09:51 AM	#9
cioppino Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: La Jolla Posts: 94	We all know that the city voted to keep the seals and amend the trust. Only our La Jolla rep Sherri Lightner wanted to get rid of the pollution and seals. Now we have to hope the Scripps family does what it promised and sues the crap out of our moronic city. Unfortunately its our money not the council members that will be wasted in all this. Anyway this thing is far from over. Just read this in the opinion section. Gives a bit of insight as to where they are going next. Here is a quote by one of the Seal Huggers Robert Johnson. The group is now going after La Jolla Cove. "We want La Jolla Cove designated as California sea lion habitat. We want lifeguards to stop chasing the sea lions off the Cove beach in the mornings and we want a rope erected to protect the area of the beach where the sea lions congregate in the mornings. If the city council is to declare Casa beach as harbor seal habitat, we want the same done at the La Jolla Cove for the California sea lions. We thank Scripps Institution of Oceanography researchers for the help they have given us on this project." They want it all for their use only. This group is of the same mindset as the MLPA wackos, they do not like fisherman or people for that matter. Its amazing the lies they try and get over on the public. The Srcipps family does not support the use of the Childrens Pool/Casa Beach as a seal rookery. They have threatened to sue the city over this issue, not support it. The fact that the MLPAs and the Childrens pool issue are coming at us at the same time only shows how organized and motivated these environwackos are. We gotta do more!

03-13-2009, 03:12 PM	#13
TXyakker Junior Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: PB Posts: 26	This stuff just makes me angry. I'm getting ready to move back to Texas for my next set of orders, and as much as i'm going to miss the fishing in La Jolla chasing , I'm so happy to get out of this state and away from these kind of people. I just dont get how people become so dumb and brainwashed to think the way they do, I wish natural selection worked a little more in our favor.... I mean, seals/animals are waaaaaaay more important than people, so we should just let them take over where we like to hang out right?

03-13-2009, 05:10 PM	#14
prowlerdude Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Clairemont Posts: 116	Humane Society of the USA has been associated with eco-terrorists. So has the head of the save the seals. Gonna be funny someday when this washes out and all the politicians that cozzied up to them are hung out to dry. Google these kooks... http://www.activistcash.com/organiza...ew.cfm?oid=136 http://www.activistcash.com/organiza...iew.cfm?oid=21 http://www.activistcash.com/biography.cfm?bid=3247 http://arfacts.wordpress.com/2008/04...rting-killers/

03-13-2009, 08:09 PM	#15
dsafety Olivenhain Bob Join Date: May 2008 Location: Olivenhain, CA Posts: 1,121	TXYakker's comment got my juices stiring. + I consider myself an environmentalist, but I totally agree with his point of view on this subject. The problem is that whenever people take up an extreme position, on just about any issue, they get out of touch with the majority. Sure, there are some occasions when a small minority of vocal people with a minority view can convince the majority to the wisdom of their point of view and change the world. The public's change in their support for the Vietnam and Iraq wars over time are good examples of the kind of changes that dedicated advocates can accomplish if their mission is righteous. The idea of settting aside traditional swimming beaches in La Jolla for the use of seals, (not native to the area, by the way), that were rescued by Sea World, simply does not past the reasonability test. Our politicians are so obcessed with winning re-election, that most of them rarely turn their brain on when it comes to sensitive issues. The simply wet their fingers and stick them in the air to see which way the popular winds are blowing. I was a lifeguard at both the Casa and the Cove years ago when people, (remember them), were the main visitors at these beaches. It would be a very sad day indeed if human usage of these two treasures is forbidden. I, for one, would happily join the revolution to overthrow those who make these kinds of stupid decisions. Bob

03-13-2009, 08:14 PM	#16
FISHIONADO Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 698	I'm a conservationist, not a preservationist, typically. However, on this particular topic I have a different point of view from most of the anti-seal people. I raised my kids in La Jolla and we never went to the children's pool even when it was open. La Jolla Shores and Scripps were always so much better. If you ask the children to vote they would choose to let the seals stay. Every day there are hundreds of people and lots of kids who enjoy watching the seals. Not many people really used the children's pool when it was open. I definitely support keeping the north kelp open for recreational fishing but I don't really care what happens to the children's pool. We have so many right-wing take all for profit types we need some left-wing save the earth types to balance things out. Without the Sierra Club Yosemite would be full of condos, Chili's, and Starbucks. Peace all.

03-14-2009, 08:40 AM	#20
FISHIONADO Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 698	Not many people used the Children's Pool when it was open. A few senior citizens in speedos was all I ever saw there. Now hundreds of people visit it every day. The children want the seals, ask them. This is just a silly issue for talk radio to rant about. Seals not native to San Diego? Planted there by Sea World? Got data to back that up? I hope we can have these debates without people reducing it to name calling and foul language.