FF Battery question (ryobi Lithium Ion?)

[ProfessorLongArms]

Hey All,

Had a great day on the water today, (The calico bite was so good, I could barely make bait... had them load up my sabiki twice, which was a fun and new challenge) but my battery went out prematurely on my FF.

This will be the 4th SLA battery I've bought since getting my Kayak 3 years ago. I'd noticed last night that my backup and my main weren't holding above 11.9v and had a feeling it was becoming problematic.

One place I *have* had a great battery experience is with my tools. I've spent half my life on jobsites, and seldom have to replace a Ryobi battery. It hit me today that they're the same Amp hour rating as a Nocqua (5ah on some of the aftermarket ebay batteries)

Am I missing anything? Anybody tried this before and have tips/warnings, etc?

EDIT: I'm an idiot and should refrain from thinking after a day on the water... I realize my Ryobis are 18v. . . . But I do see stuff like this online that looks pretty tempting for the price if nothing else worth the experiment
https://www.amazon.com/DSANKE-Lithiu...673836&sr=8-16

[igotpron]

Yes. What voltage are you thinking? I’m awaiting a voltage regulator that accepts 11-24 volts and outputs 12 volts. My build is using 3 5ah makita 18 volt batteries. My lowrance FF said it can work on voltages up to 17v but my batteries start around 20. Didn’t want to take any chances. IMG_3306.jpg


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[ProfessorLongArms]

Originally Posted by igotpron

Yes. What voltage are you thinking? I’m awaiting a voltage regulator that accepts 11-24 volts and outputs 12 volts. My build is using 3 5ah makita 18 volt batteries. My lowrance FF said it can work on voltages up to 17v but my batteries start around 20. Didn’t want to take any chances. Attachment 26516


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Heh. I just finished editing my post, as I realized I brainfarted on the voltage. Thanks for pointing that out... Looks like my garmin has a 10-20 range, so I *could* actually power it on an 18v and just throw them on my dedicated tool charger between trips.

Good to know this isn't crazy. Now it looks like I've got a rabbit hole to fall down

[igotpron]

I would make sure you display your input voltage on your fish finder so you don’t discharge down to far. Most manufactures am have safety’s built in where if it’s over discharged the charger will brick the battery.

Heavy lead acid batteries. And a desire to build something lead me to this. Plus I haven’t been fishing enough to justify a 100-200$ dedicated battery. But I do already have a ton of makita batteries that I use regularly. Figured might as well build it.


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[ctfphoto]

I just replaced mine with a new Nocqua 12v Lithium 10AH which is 1.4 pounds.

Used it a couple of days ago to Limit on Vermilion and it never ran out of power.

It is super light compared to the clunker lead-acid.

I am so glad Ron talked me into it.

I highly recommend it.

[TJones]

reasonable price. life expectancy of 2000 - 3000 charges / 7-10 years. made specifically for marine application. warranty is good and customer service is exceptional. these battery's are built for marine applications with safety in mind, eliminating the possibility of fire. there is a chart on their web page which recommends a specific battery based on your head unit model and gives estimated hours of operation per charge based on your head units power consumption. these batters are high capacity batteries with a long life. also half the weight of SLA battery. you will need to buy the charger initially.

[Harry Hill]

I use the same batteries I use in my rc airplanes 3 cell LiPo batteries, 5 amp usually last me 6 hours and because they are light in weight I carry an extra and change them if I need longer times. It does take a dedicated charger

[jruiz]

Many power drills are using lithium iron phosphate chemistry. It's really meant for high power applications. Not saying it won't work, just not optimized for your use case. In addition, I'd be curious to know what your FF is doing with that extra voltage. My guess is that it's going through a voltage regulator, some are efficient others are not(linear).

[Harry Hill]

There are big differences in Lithium technology. While Lithium Polymer will charge to 4.7 volts per cell and discharge at a more even rate Lithium Ion charges to 3.3 volts per cell and hold a steady level longer but will fall off rapidly without warning. LiPo drops evenly but cannot be allowed to fall below 3 volts per cell or will be ruined and cannot be recharged. Both take a dedicated charger. Both can be partially discharged and recharged without damaging them and will take over 1000 charge cycles. LiPo is highly volatile and if damaged will burn with a white hot fire, not a good thing on a boat. Probably the type of battery that was on the dive boat. I use LiPo because that is what I own but if I buy another battery for my kayak it will be LiIon.

[igotpron]

Originally Posted by Harry Hill

There are big differences in Lithium technology. While Lithium Polymer will charge to 4.7 volts per cell and discharge at a more even rate Lithium Ion charges to 3.3 volts per cell and hold a steady level longer but will fall off rapidly without warning. LiPo drops evenly but cannot be allowed to fall below 3 volts per cell or will be ruined and cannot be recharged. Both take a dedicated charger. Both can be partially discharged and recharged without damaging them and will take over 1000 charge cycles. LiPo is highly volatile and if damaged will burn with a white hot fire, not a good thing on a boat. Probably the type of battery that was on the dive boat. I use LiPo because that is what I own but if I buy another battery for my kayak it will be LiIon.

Sooooo. Who’s got a cell phone without a lipo inside? I’m aware of the potential hazards. But the worst that happens is I flood my batteries with salt water. Which happens to be one of the safe ways to discharge the battery down before you destroy it. So worst case is I loose a couple batteries. But that’s only if my kayak floods and my waterproof box floods. And by that point. That’s probably the least of my concerns.


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[Harry Hill]

Originally Posted by igotpron

Sooooo. Who’s got a cell phone without a lipo inside? I’m aware of the potential hazards. But the worst that happens is I flood my batteries with salt water. Which happens to be one of the safe ways to discharge the battery down before you destroy it. So worst case is I loose a couple batteries. But that’s only if my kayak floods and my waterproof box floods. And by that point. That’s probably the least of my concerns.


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Your biggest concern is if you damage the battery somehow, then it could have an internal short and explode in flames, which water will not extinguish. Lithium fires need a type D extinguisher to put out. a dead short will also cause a fire or at the very least this will happen

[TJones]

Exactly are we looking at? Can’t make it out. A battery that expanded?

[jruiz]

There's alot of misinformation in this thread, some of which would at the minimum give you an unpleasant day on the water or at it's worst cause death or harm.

1. Lipo is a reference to the use of a polymer base electrolyte as oppose to a liquid base system + separator. It's inherently safer. Reason being it removes flammable liquid electrolyte from the equation. It does NOT charge at a different voltage.

2. All lithium metal oxide chemistry type cells charge to 4.2-4.1 volts. Lithium iron phophate charges to 3.6. What Harry is probably seeing on his rc batteries are the operating voltages per cell, not the charge voltage. He's probably mistaking 4.7 for 3.7. Charging to 4.7 WILL definitely cause a fire. Charging to 3.3 will probably discharge the cell.

3. Class D fire extinguisher is only needed for metal fires. These are group 1 or 2 elements like lithium, sodium, magnesium, and calcium. This applies only in their pure form. Lithium metal does not exist in lithium ion or lipo batteries. Lithium metal does occur in non-rechargeable lithium batteries. Most of the fire from a lithium ion battery is the electrolyte, hence why a class B extinguisher should be used.

I've been involved in research and manufacturing of lithium non-rechargeable batteries for over 10 years. Currently working on non-rechargeable and rechargeable lithium batteries for space applications.

[Harry Hill]

Originally Posted by TJones

Exactly are we looking at? Can’t make it out. A battery that expanded?

a battery that shorted out and had an exothermic reaction. Those are all the different layers of that make up the battery. It was in the bed of my pick up and shorted out.

[Harry Hill]

Originally Posted by jruiz

There's alot of misinformation in this thread, some of which would at the minimum give you an unpleasant day on the water or at it's worst cause death or harm.

1. Lipo is a reference to the use of a polymer base electrolyte as oppose to a liquid base system + separator. It's inherently safer. Reason being it removes flammable liquid electrolyte from the equation. It does NOT charge at a different voltage.

2. All lithium metal oxide chemistry type cells charge to 4.2-4.1 volts. Lithium iron phophate charges to 3.6. What Harry is probably seeing on his rc batteries are the operating voltages per cell, not the charge voltage. He's probably mistaking 4.7 for 3.7. Charging to 4.7 WILL definitely cause a fire. Charging to 3.3 will probably discharge the cell.

3. Class D fire extinguisher is only needed for metal fires. These are group 1 or 2 elements like lithium, sodium, magnesium, and calcium. This applies only in their pure form. Lithium metal does not exist in lithium ion or lipo batteries. Lithium metal does occur in non-rechargeable lithium batteries. Most of the fire from a lithium ion battery is the electrolyte, hence why a class B extinguisher should be used.

I've been involved in research and manufacturing of lithium non-rechargeable batteries for over 10 years. Currently working on non-rechargeable and rechargeable lithium batteries for space applications.

Jr, Lithium Polymer will charge to 4.7 volts per cell, Lithium Ion charges to 3.7, two different chemistries. I have witnessed enough battery fires to know you can't put them out with type A,B, or C extinguishers. Two many hobbiests have lost their homes or cars from Lithium Polymer fires by making mistakes in charging or putting a damaged battery in their car without realizing the battery was damaged. I will say the technology is much better than when I first started using the battery type in 2000.

[jruiz]

Originally Posted by Harry Hill

Two many hobbiests have lost their homes or cars from Lithium Polymer fires by making mistakes in charging or putting a damaged battery in their car without realizing the battery was damaged.

That's because they listened to you. Mic drop

[TJones]

Originally Posted by Harry Hill

a battery that shorted out and had an exothermic reaction. Those are all the different layers of that make up the battery. It was in the bed of my pick up and shorted out.

I use a bioenno 6 volt 10 amp lipo for my vittels bait tank. The tank has a dry box to hold the battery. The battery is heat shrink wrapped with abs. The sides are paper. I wrapped the whole battery with heavy duty clear packing tape making it more water resistant. Is this thing a ticking time bomb? It is encased in a dry box when fishing. What happens to the lipo’s if they are short circuited from water such as flooding of yak? Thanks for feedback. Ps. Thanks for reaching out on my direct message.

[jruiz]

I don't even know why I'm wasting my time with this. This is a LIPO battery from my garage

This is a volt meter on the same 3 cell LIPO battery that I just charged. 12.5/3=4.16V


Here's a datasheet for a random LIPO cell with the charge voltage highlighted


If you somehow discovered a 4.7-5V lithium rechargeable battery, hurry up and patent it. Everyone in the battery industry knows that the electrolytes in the batteries aren't stable at that high of a voltage. What happens is that the electrolyte breaks down and starts forming CO2. Probably what happened to you guys

https://www.arl.army.mil/wp-content/...trolyteAdd.pdf

[Harry Hill]

Originally Posted by jruiz

I don't even know why I'm wasting my time with this. This is a LIPO battery from my garage

This is a volt meter on the same 3 cell LIPO battery that I just charged. 12.5/3=4.16V


Here's a datasheet for a random LIPO cell with the charge voltage highlighted


If you somehow discovered a 4.7-5V lithium rechargeable battery, hurry up and patent it. Everyone in the battery industry knows that the electrolytes in the batteries aren't stable at that high of a voltage. What happens is that the electrolyte breaks down and starts forming CO2. Probably what happened to you guys

https://www.arl.army.mil/wp-content/...trolyteAdd.pdf

JR, I owe you an apology, my batteries are not charging to 4.7, instead they are charging to 4.2 volts. That being said if you are using the proper charger you cannot over charge LiPo batteries when using the balance charger. My LiIo batteries charge to 3.3 volts per cell and a two cell will show 6.7 volts when freshly charged. The houses and cars burning are not because of overcharging LiPo batteries in most cases, it is from damaged batteries from a crash or some other damage. The battery in the picture shorted to my pickup bed in transport.

[jruiz]

Originally Posted by Harry Hill

JR, I owe you an apology, my batteries are not charging to 4.7, instead they are charging to 4.2 volts. That being said if you are using the proper charger you cannot over charge LiPo batteries when using the balance charger. My LiIo batteries charge to 3.3 volts per cell and a two cell will show 6.7 volts when freshly charged. The houses and cars burning are not because of overcharging LiPo batteries in most cases, it is from damaged batteries from a crash or some other damage. The battery in the picture shorted to my pickup bed in transport.

Do your "LiIo" say anything about LFP(Lithium Iron Phosphate) or LTO(Lithium Titanate)on them? Easier yet, send a link of what have. I'm willing to bet they're either LFP or LTO batteries which are a sublcass of lithium ion. Which can also be packaged as a LiPo battery.