hacking up my yak

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by bubblehide

yep, your right, I am trying to build a better mouse trap, and I probably should have left it as that; sorry.

Damn Hobbie Hater

[dsafety]

Originally Posted by bubblehide

yep, your right, I am trying to build a better mouse trap, and I probably should have left it as that; sorry.

Your comments about the Hobie hull designs are pretty accurate. Even the Revo probably could use some refinements. I would love to not have to have my hand on the rudder control all the time while peddling around and being able to easily land in tough surf conditions without fear of holding a yard sale is something everyone would appreciate.

As with most things, accommodations have to be made by the manufacturers so that products will appeal to the widest range of potential customers. Experiments such as yours may open a few eyes as to what can be done. I look forward to seeing the results.

Here is something to think about. Your comment about Hobies not tracking well is true when under peddle power. My Revo, when in paddle mode tracks much better, even without using the rudder. I wonder if the turbulence or some other factor that is introduced by the Mirage Drive has anything to do with this.

Your experiment will probably shed some light on this. If the modified yak retains its excellent handling characteristics after the Mirage Drive is installed, you will have probably proved that the Hobie hulls need some work. If, on the other hand, the peddle system induces tracking problems similar to what we Hobie users experience, that would be another lesson learned.

Please keep us posted on your progress.

Bob

[dorado50]

Bob, sounds to me the hobie is not your "bag", perhaps you would be better off with a paddle kayak? Complain..complain...bitch ....bitch...time to go fishing bob!

[bubblehide]

Originally Posted by dsafety

Your comments about the Hobie hull designs are pretty accurate. Even the Revo probably could use some refinements. I would love to not have to have my hand on the rudder control all the time while peddling around and being able to easily land in tough surf conditions without fear of holding a yard sale is something everyone would appreciate.

As with most things, accommodations have to be made by the manufacturers so that products will appeal to the widest range of potential customers. Experiments such as yours may open a few eyes as to what can be done. I look forward to seeing the results.

Here is something to think about. Your comment about Hobies not tracking well is true when under peddle power. My Revo, when in paddle mode tracks much better, even without using the rudder. I wonder if the turbulence or some other factor that is introduced by the Mirage Drive has anything to do with this.

Your experiment will probably shed some light on this. If the modified yak retains its excellent handling characteristics after the Mirage Drive is installed, you will have probably proved that the Hobie hulls need some work. If, on the other hand, the peddle system induces tracking problems similar to what we Hobie users experience, that would be another lesson learned.

Please keep us posted on your progress.

Bob

Bob, you've made some very insightful statements here, much more eloquent then I. Your 100% right on with a manufacturer appealing to a wide range of potential customers; you just don't stay in business if you don't do this to some degree; and in doing so, everyone gets a little bit of what they want. Obviously Hobie has a product that appeals to many people; their roto-molding is excellent, the pedal drive system is simply ingenious. But there will still be a few picky bastards like myself, that want a little bit more; and from a $$$$$/profit perspective, it may not make any sense to give us picky bastards what we want.

In consideration of tracking, if we compare the difference in tracking of the Revo vs the Outback, we find a huge difference, in both paddle and pedal mode, So I would conclude that hull design would make a difference; but that is nothing new considering the two hull types; and is very predictable. But I do think your on to something with the turbulence factor of the drive, and considering the low slope design of the Altura's hull, I don't think I will end up with the best tracking (once done) from the Altura, without some minor modifications to the bottom of the hull. Basically, I guess what I am saying, is that to end up with a pedal drive yak that tracks well, you need to start with a hull that tracks very well. I also think that that turbulence effect you speak of, may be amplified in the surf zone as you have water going in the same direction as the yak, and against the intended water direction as it travels past the drive unit (not to mentions side currents and what not in the surf zone). I simply don't know if a better tracking hull design will make a difference in the surf zone; and considering the slight slope hull design of the Altura, I have my doubt's that it will preform any better than your Revo, unless I try some minor hull modifications, and then I still wouldn't bet one way or the other (in the surf zone).

Someone had mentioned that I may have the fastest yak out there once done; I'm honestly not sure about this. I would say I would end up with a more efficient kayak. I guess what I'm saying is that it should be faster off the line, i.e., more efficient. But when it comes to top speed, I think it's a combination of hull design and the pedal drive units abilities; and I feel that the design of the drive unit has it upper speed output limits. So I don't expect to gain any significant speed over another pedal drive yak, given consideration for hull design/speed ability. But I do expect the yak to do what ever speed with more efficiency It's that efficiency that makes the Hobie's so damn appealing and well worth the extra dough.

[bubblehide]

Originally Posted by dorado50

Bob, sounds to me the hobie is not your "bag", perhaps you would be better off with a paddle kayak? Complain..complain...bitch ....bitch...time to go fishing bob!

And I thought he was noting his observations,

[dsafety]

Originally Posted by bubblehide

Someone had mentioned that I may have the fastest yak out there once done; I'm honestly not sure about this. I would say I would end up with a more efficient kayak. I guess what I'm saying is that it should be faster off the line, i.e., more efficient. But when it comes to top speed, I think it's a combination of hull design and the pedal drive units abilities; and I feel that the design of the drive unit has it upper speed output limits. So I don't expect to gain any significant speed over another pedal drive yak, given consideration for hull design/speed ability. But I do expect the yak to do what ever speed with more efficiency It's that efficiency that makes the Hobie's so damn appealing and well worth the extra dough.

I am not a naval engineer or anything close but if I remember correctly there is something called "hull speed" that determines the maximum speed that a single hull vessel can reach without coming to a plane. It has something to do with displacement, drag and probably some other factors. At some some speed, the hull starts to create bow waves which offset increases in thrust. Simply put, when a vessel reaches its hull speed, increases in thrust are counteracted by increases in resistance so the thing will not go faster regardless of how much propulsion is added.

Apparently there are exceptions to this rule. Racing kayaks are an exception. These boats can go reach speeds that are nearly twice their theoretical hull speed. I have no idea why.

My guess is that since your hull is a faster design to begin with you will have a higher hull speed than the Hobies. I also think that there is a good chance that the increased efficiency of the hull will make it so you will get more thrust with the same energy. This should help improve your maximum speed as well.

Time will tell. Regardless of how everything turns out, it looks to be a fun project.

Bob

[805gregg]

[QUOTE=dsafety;76126]I am not a naval engineer or anything close but if I remember correctly there is something called "hull speed" that determines the maximum speed that a single hull vessel can reach without coming to a plane. It has something to do with displacement, drag and probably some other factors.

It's waterline length, there is a mathamatical formula, and unless you can plane, you are limited to that speed. It's something about wave formation or something. I do know on my 28' displacement sailboat it's about 6.2 knots, I could put 400 hp and not go faster, it will go 6.2 knots with the 15 hp diesel, I have. And use 1 qt per hr.

[-scallywag-]

Cool idea!!!


It doesn't surprise me that a former outback owner would feel this way, specially if you owned a 1st gen hull (with the round front hatch). And didn't you return your hobie because it didn't steer itself? I think Hobies "ill handling hulls" are actually designed that way. You have to consider that the large majority of people out there are using them in calm waters, and really enjoy the quick boat-like response of the Hobie hulls. Not to mention, who actually paddles these things? Remember the Outback is still, by far, the best seller.Having a hull that tracks well will not feel as playful in the water, and would also scrub off a lot of speed every time you do turn.


Enter the Adventure....long and sleek (27.5"W vs. 31"W) and as close to a true SIS touring style hull as I've seen on any SOT (besides maybe the 160i, prowler and expedition)....granted the area under the cock-pit is a little flatter, giving up some tracking but not much. I can't imagine someone into speed and efficiency "hating" this hull design.....although I do imagine that there are plenty of people out there who are a little afraid of trying to fish from a 27.5" wide platform. Maintaining speed/efficiency, especially in rough water has a cost, and generally it is stability.


As for the surf...well, IMHO it has a lot more to do with the skill and strength of the paddler along with the weight distribution in the kayak. Hull design and width, not so much!!

Anyway, I can't wait to read the rest of the build along with the testing and tuning afterwards. Hopefully you can hook-up with a local Hobie guy "roadrunner" and do some performance testing. In the past he has put most of the Hobie hulls though some pretty extensive tests.

FYI, the "calculated hull speed" debate has already been beat to death...the equation is antiquated and has little use when discussing kayak hulls.

[bubblehide]

Originally Posted by -scallywag-

Cool idea!!!


It doesn't surprise me that a former outback owner would feel this way, specially if you owned a 1st gen hull (with the round front hatch). And didn't you return your hobie because it didn't steer itself?

...

Nope, it wasn't a 1st gen, and no, I didn't return it.

[dsafety]

Originally Posted by -scallywag-

FYI, the "calculated hull speed" debate has already been beat to death...the equation is antiquated and has little use when discussing kayak hulls.

Scally, for those of us not in the know, please explain the above statement.

Bob

[StinkyMatt]

I admire your spirit of adventure, big balls for cutting up a yak and the brain work that goes into a project like that. Without folks like these we would all be still using these things called "paddle" to move our yaks around.

[bubblehide]

Originally Posted by StinkyMatt

I admire your spirit of adventure, big balls for cutting up a yak and the brain work that goes into a project like that. Without folks like these we would all be still using these things called "paddle" to move our yaks around.

Matt, I'm not sure I deserve such accolades,although there nice to hear. After all, being a bit older than most yakers, I have some advantages (I don't even want to discuss the disadvantages of being older ). When I went to school, there use to be industrial arts classes (shop classes), that actually taught real world applications, practical skills, and trade skills; where geometry wasn't some foreign/abstract idea, but just a part of completing a layout. Those classes simply don't exist in California public schools any longer, and the emphasis is now on book knowledge/academia. I think those classes gave the students of those (my) days some good basic skills, knowledge, and abilities; but more importantly, the confidence needed to tackle such projects as this one. Unfortunately, nowadays, most youth in California are not exposed to industrial and trade arts. I guess what I am saying is, that times have changed, and at one point in time, what I am doing would not have been considered having big balls; having a sense of adventure, perhaps. I mean, it's not like I'm inventing something new, nor am I taking two separate things and putting them together, for a first time. Yet it is a bit of an adventure, and I generally do derive great satisfaction when a project comes together as planned (and functions as expected).

But I do appreciate the encouraging comments!
Now I've got to figure out how to get the new pics from the darn phone to here, so I can update you all.

[yakrider]

Gary...
stay off the computer...
get back into the garage and build the dang thang already!
no more internet banter untill you make more progress....
I wanna see the big ass hole in the bottom of that yak...
and how about wearing a heart rate monitor and video the
heart rate from the time you bust out the jig saw to the actual hole cutting...be interesting to see the effects on the body when one cuts a big gnarly hole in the bottom of the yak...
I know I pooped a little when I drilled a 2" hole in the bottom of my "brand spankin' new, never been in the water yet" Revo...
my heart rate went through the roof...

[bubblehide]

Originally Posted by yakrider

Gary...
stay off the computer...
get back into the garage and build the dang thang already!
no more internet banter untill you make more progress....
I wanna see the big ass hole in the bottom of that yak...
and how about wearing a heart rate monitor and video the
heart rate from the time you bust out the jig saw to the actual hole cutting...be interesting to see the effects on the body when one cuts a big gnarly hole in the bottom of the yak...
I know I pooped a little when I drilled a 2" hole in the bottom of my "brand spankin' new, never been in the water yet" Revo...
my heart rate went through the roof...

Hey Josh, long time no see! The hole is already cut, both topside and bottom. I need a decent weather window to start putting it back together, as I don't have have an enclosed heated place to work on it.

What! One little 2" hole did that to a guy that cuts, hacks, and slashes for a living, I can only imagine

[RandyDaytona]

Greetings all!

New member with a first post. I currently own a CD Altura and was surfing the web, doing some research on possibly getting another one when my search led me to this site.

I'm interested to see how your project comes out. I looked at Hobies, but they didn't seem to "fit" me very well and I liked the Altura's design better. It's already a speedy SOT (I started kayaking in Greenland-style sea kayaks when I lived in SE Alaska and Washington state, and I think the Altura is comparable to them as far as flat-out speed - not AS fast, but it can certainly hold its own for such a heavy/beamy boat). A "hands-free" propulsion option would be kinda cool, though.

I need a decent weather window to start putting it back together, as I don't have have an enclosed heated place to work on it.

Whaddaya mean? Aren't you guys all in California? Who needs heat when the tempurature is above freezing ? There are actually icebergs floating on the surface of Lake Superior right now.

Great forum, BTW.

Ron