Bounce Ball Questions

[taggermike]

I'm rather new to this technique so any input from more experienced bouncers would be appreciated. I have the basics down but am still wondering what bait/lure to actually troll. Lots of info out there but
from the kayak perspective what have you had best success with?

Thanks Mike

Managing on a kayak is tricky, but it can be learned pretty quick. The most helpfull tip I can give you is to work in a direction opposite the flow of water, it will help keep things manageable if you speed up or slow down. It also makes it easier to lower them without a mess.

I like using white hoochies if there is no live bait to stick on the end. Make the leader from the line to the dodger the highest test, the weight the lightest and the dodger to the bait 2nd.

I usually go 50# mono from swivel to dodger, 30# floro from dodger to hooks and 10-15 on the weights. That way if you get tangled on the rocks or kelp, you only lose the cheaper stuff.

Make the leader from the dodger to the bait/hoochi about 12" to get plenty of action, and the leader from swivel to dodger about 26-30" or so. The line should never be greater than a 45deg angle with the water line. If it is, add more weight. A 2# ball always works great. The type of rod is preference. I like a stiffer rod with medium action. You get good "bounce" but can absorb the headshakes and lower your chance of ripping the hook. Greg is a great advocate of rods with good parabolic flex.

I hope this helps.

[jorluivil]

I've never done the whole bounce ball thing but one thing that I will agree on is that a stiff rod seems to get more hook-ups, my Teramar X76MH seems to get far more hook sets than the X76M. Also, because I always have my rods in rod holders I use circle hooks, this allows the hook to set itself. Personally, I think the whole bounce ball thing is a bit to much when fishing from a yak. My arsenal has remained the same for last few years:

spectra to 3-way swivel to with a circle hook and trap hook with an 8oz sinker

or

spectra to a barrel swivel to a drop shot to an 8oz sinker

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by taggermike

I'm rather new to this technique so any input from more experienced bouncers would be appreciated. I have the basics down but am still wondering what bait/lure to actually troll. Lots of info out there but from the kayak perspective what have you had best success with?

How about something completely different.

Traditional bounce balling was done with boats where they could keep things moving by keeping the motors in gear, and a lot of gear or drag in the water wasn't an issue since they weren't paddling. Those methods work with a kayak but they are a big workout when kayaking and you can only effectively fish one rod at a time.

I think there are better ways to do this. Personally for Kayaking I use much lighter gear then I would use on a boat and single plugs vrs hoochies and flashers, and I only like to bounce ball on clean open sand like in SMB almost always in 40 to 75 feet of water.

There are two main reasons I use these rigs. Small floating plugs get bit well but unlike hoochies rapalas and plugs float up and do not snag up when you stop. Lighter line gear and smaller weights pull through the water with less effort, so I don't have to paddle as hard. This way I can fish two rods instead of one and fish longer without wearing myself out.

Gear wise I use 20 pound spectra on a conventional level wind like a ABU6500C. I put these on a light tipped six to seven foot parabolic rod (I use Kencor 10-30s)

I splice in ten feet of 20 or 15 pound fluorocarbon leader at the end of the spectra, and tie that to a 3 way swivel.

One the weight side of the three way I tie 2 feet of fluorocarbon with a snap at the end, so I can change out weights quickly. Weight wise I fish 4 to 12 ounces but usually 4, 6, and 8 ounce torpedo sinkers.


On the lure side I add three feet of the same the same test fluorocarbon leader. Lure wise I've tried dozens of things but narrowed it down to three baits.

Floating Rapalas:


Rapala X Raps


CD9 Cordell Redfins



So how does this all work?

First off I like to bounce ball perpendicular to the wind or going down wind. If I'm going upwind for an extended period of I usually only fish one rod, but I prefer two because it's way more effective.

I set up my yak so I can fish two rods that are always in front of me with rod holders pointed to either side. I want them in reach so I can quickly adjust them letting out more line or changing the drag.

On one I put on a lighter say four ounce weight on the other I use a heavier sinker like a eight ounce weight. and I fish them staggered with the heavy one in closer to the yak and the lighter one further back.

I first put out the lighter rig on the upwind side and I leave the reel in gear with a light slipping drag and paddle while it drops down. I then paddle forward maybe thirty or more feet letting line slip off the reel while it the weight drags on the bottom. When it's the correct distance back I tighten up to a strike setting. Tight enough to set the hook with the spectra but too lose to break the line if a fish runs hard. Put the clicker on, put it in the holder and that's the long rod.

I then put the heavy weighted one out using the same technique paddling as it goes down and letting it go back a bit. The big deal here is you want the light one far enough back that you do not tangle it when you drop the heavy one. You also want at least twenty feet between the baits once they are both on the bottom. The long one follows the short one with the heaviest weight closest to the yak, and you want them far enough back that both stay on the bottom almost all the time at about 1.2 knots.

Once they are both out on the bottom I then paddle forward with steady strokes watching the rod tips as both weights bounce steadily increasing speed until they are both off the bottom. I then stop paddling and watch them settle. The deal is you want both weights to come off the bottom at the same time and then hit the bottom at the same time.

Once you have that worked out you just paddle a few strokes forward, stop and wait till they hit bottom then paddle forward again. Some fish hit when you speed up some when the baits are settling. Always watch the rod tips, they can tell you about your speed, the bottom conditions, whether you have junk on your lures, etc. Not every fish slams these baits though some do. Some of the bites are just little taps so don't depend on the clicker, you want to always watch the rod tips to keep up with what's going on.

When you get a strike you don't stop or set the hook. Instead paddle forward hard picking up speed to get the yak and holder to hook the fish. With spectra you don't have to set the hook, you'll know when it's hooked because it'll start taking drag. If the fish is not hooked let it settle down again, then paddle forward again keep working the baits after a bite.

If the fish hooks up paddle forward and keep paddling for a while letting the line slip off the drag with the rod still in the holder. This is important. The deal is you want to keep that line tight while the butt does it's first big head shakes right after you hook it, because that's when it's most likely to spit the hook. Paddling forward keeps the line tight and the hook well set. Watch the rod tip bounce and lunges, you can tell what the fish is doing, and you want to wait till it starts to settle down before taking the rod out of the holder. It's just like trolling for tuna or Marlin in this respect. I essentially keep paddling hard until the rod loads up solid and the fish starts taking drag steady and smoothly. I then pick up the rod and reel it in.

Once you have a fish on you don't really have to clear the other rod. I like to turn the yak so that rod is on the upwind side and reel in the fish. If you let it sit the lure floats up it and stays off the bottom, on clean sand the sinker just drags and does not hang up. That's the real beauty of these rigs, is that they are pretty much hassle free and when it's windy you can even drift them just like bait. Often while I'm on one fish I'll hook another on on this dead stick but I leave it in the holder and work the first fish first.

If you get a strike and it misses on the first rod pay special attention to the second one as it's likely to get hit as well. Two strikes means a major concentration of fish or a hungry fish, be sure and hit that spot again. Personally I mark every strike I get on the GPS and after a while if you mark them you'll have a pattern that will tell you where to fish.

Color wise you want to match the bait and water clarity. Silver blue, blue white, black silver, black white, mackerel, sardine, even rainbow trout patterns all work. Whites for dirty water silver for clear is a good general rule. Size wise think Anchovies and Sardines. Anchovie size baits generally get bit the most but sometimes they really are into the bigger lures.

So that's the basic technique but a few extra things. The hooks on these lures rust fast, and are weak to begin with. I replace all mine with stainless hooks. Also when using deeper divers like the CD9 Redfin you want to shorten the leader to keep it from digging in the sand when your paddling.

Another thing that's important is you do not want to use heavy tackle. These lures are not made to be fished on heavy tackle, if you fish more then twenty pound you'll get less then half as many strikes, and fifteen will outperform twenty. Also on heavier gear the hooks will straighten and the lures can even break (especially CD9s) if you put too much pressure on them.

CD9s are really kind of crappy lures construction wise but they are especially good on rough days as the motion of the yak transfers to them and makes them dodge and lunge in a way that really get's bit. It's a better lure bite wise just poorly constructed, so keep an eye on them because they will break.

This technique in general is really really effective.

I've been using it for over two decades, and though I came up with it for fishing skiffs my first trip in a kayak I caught three halibut doing it. Often I don't buy bait and only fish plugs and I've caught more then I can count with the technique.

Honestly there are times it will out fish bait and you'll catch everything from Butts to Blacks to an occasional white seabass using it. I've caught soupfins but no threshers, but I'd suggest a reel that holds a lot of line just in case you hook something huge.

I've caught a lot of butts over ten pounds doing this and my largest is in the high twenties, but I have a friend that caught a nice thirty plus pound fish the first time he tried it so if you try it be ready for large fish.

At any rate that's how I bounce ball and it works fro me.

Jim

[jorluivil]

[ful-rac]

Wow...never mind!

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by jorluivil

Ha Ha.... Some of us actually like to share info.

Like I said I've been doing this for a long time and it works. Almost everyone I've shown it to has caught fish with it. I don't think I've ever posted it online before but I figured maybe some of you would have a use for it.

[rhyak]

OR GET A HOBIE and just use a normal BB...

[StinkyMatt]

Great, very detailed post Jim. This is going to help a lot of guys out.


Question. How do you get a 4oz and 8oz weight to come up and fall at the same rate?

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by StinkyMatt

Great, very detailed post Jim. This is going to help a lot of guys out. Question. How do you get a 4oz and 8oz weight to come up and fall at the same rate?

It's related to the the distance back and the line angle in the water. You just get one of the two to ride right then adjust the other one.

For instance say the four ounce is riding right but the eight is just staying on the bottom. That means the eight is too far back so you reel in a few turns at a time until it comes off the bottom at the same time. Say the eight is riding right but the four is staying up too long. Let line out on the four till it hits on the sink at the same time. The closer the torpedoes are to each other in weight the closer the baits will be to each other on the bottom. With ten and four the lures will be way apart. With six and eight they will be close.

Another trick is changing the weight and speed to the conditions.

Sometimes they want things slow, and I have found 1.2 knots is usually ideal, but say you want to go faster and cover more ground. A twelve ounce in front and a eight behind it will allow you to increase your speed and still keep the same action.

Another thing is current. I have best results going with not against the current. I think that's because butts lie down on the bottom facing upcurrent so they can watch for bait coming down with it. Going with the current takes less weight and you have to move faster, going against it more, and you have to slow down, so depending on which way your going you may have to change weights. I like going with the current because it takes less weight, you cover more ground, it's an easier paddle, and the butts seam to attack baits better when they are moving the same direction as the current.

Thanks for the comeback

[BillzBaitz]

:notwo rthy:

[Fiskadoro]

So I dug up a hard drive and looked for some old pics.

This ones from a long time ago, not sure when but it's from before I had a digital camera (an editted scan of a real photo) and was still fishing mono on my skiff.


The Halibut ate a CD9 Redfin in Black and White (killer pattern), and the Bass ate a standard 3 hook floating Rapala in a anchovy pattern that I think they discontinued. Both of them hit at the same time.

Doubles strikes are actually pretty common and you get a pretty high hook up ratio. What's great is when you have a day when Halibut are raking every bait, but not eating them. They touch that plug they are hooked even if like the fish above they never really take it in their mouth.

Like I said I've been fishing this way a long time, and except for a few friends I showed it to I'm the only one I know that's been doing it. It works great on boats but it's perfect for kayaking, so if it becomes popular I'm blaming you guys

Oh didn't you hear? Charkbait and Squidco just ran out of Rapalas

[Aaron&Julie]

Originally Posted by Fiskadoro

How about something completely different.
Jim

Very similiar to what worked for Julie's women's record halibut, it was in about 10' feet of water, a 1oz chrome torpedo was all that was needed, on a floating Rapala mackerel pattern. She was using 12lb Maxima on the reel, I believe 15lb P-line leader from the 3-way to the lure, and 10lb or 12lb 3-way to the sinker. The 12lb line on the reel tested a little higher at the IGFA, so they listed it under the 16lb class category. As far as we know it is still holding up as the largest ever caught by a woman on any craft under any pound test line.

We've caught many much, much smaller ones this way too, along with the ones where a bait hook and live sardine was substituted for the lure.

Aaron

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by Aaron&Julie

Very similiar to what worked for Julie's women's record halibut, it was in about 10' feet of water, a 1oz chrome torpedo was all that was needed, on a floating Rapala mackerel pattern. She was using 12lb Maxima on the reel, I believe 15lb P-line leader from the 3-way to the lure, and 10lb or 12lb 3-way to the sinker. The 12lb line on the reel tested a little higher at the IGFA, so they listed it under the 16lb class category. As far as we know it is still holding up as the largest ever caught by a woman on any craft under any pound test line. We've caught many much, much smaller ones this way too, along with the ones where a bait hook and live sardine was substituted for the lure.

That's incredibly cool. I knew about that fish but never knew that she got it on a rapala. You can definitely get big fish fishing this way but that was a monster.

It's funny how things go in and out of fashion. This is really kind of an old timers trick.

I first learned about it from a early addition of "Fisherman's Digest" written in the 60s in which guys were using wire line, and rapalas, with 3-ways and sinkers for Lake Trout. I started doing something similar with mono for stripped bass on the Brazos and Red river in shallower water when I was a teenager in the seventies, and it was pretty effective. When I came out here I started using it for halibut, but I really got into it after spectra hit the market.

In Texas the hot lures were the Rebel spoonbill...



and the 7 inch CD10 Redfin.


I tried those first but never had much luck out here with the Rebel spoonbill.

The Cordell c10 works for butts especially when they want really big baits, and that lure is beefy enough for heavier line. I used to troll them right on the bottom with down-riggers. It has low drag and a good action at slow speeds so you can pull it from a yak, so I still sometimes fish them. It is actually a really good surface lure for Barracuda, Calicos, and I've even caught Yellows on them.

I like the X Raps because they are well built, and they do catch butts in the smaller sizes. They seem to work best when your moving a little faster, and don't have much action slow. Generally I use them when I'm trying to cover a of of ground at a faster speed, but switch to the standard Rapala's when fishing normally.

For halibut the anchovie sized standard floating rapalas just make sense in the white and silver patterns. They have good action at slow speeds and the fish really love them. Halibut just love Anchovies so it's no big surprise they like that bait.

What did surprised me was success of the CD9 Cordell. I always thought it was just junk and worthless but it's actually one of the better lures for halibut in the right conditions. It's really light and buoyant but dives hard so I think it covers more of the water column, floating up higher at stops then quickly diving down to the sand when you pull it. They probably think it's a scared bait-fish trying to hide on the bottom. All I know is it works.

Spectra has really changed the way you can fish these things. The deal is back in the day with mono you had to put out more line to get to the bottom, and use heavier weights, so though it was decent shallow, with it's stretch it was always hard to get a good hookset fishing with mono deep.

Wire is a pain to fish with and it has no stretch but I hate using it. Dacron was better for stretch but still almost as thick as mono.

With thin 20 pound spectra you can get away with smaller weights, fish with less line out, and with it's lack of stretch it's really easy to get a good hook set. So though fishing with rapalas and weights has always been a decent way to fish it's now much easier and more effective in deep water then it used to be.

[ful-rac]

Originally Posted by Fiskadoro

A duct tape gaff on a broomstick!!! For shame jim! A master fabricator like yourself could fabricate somethin' a little bit better than that !

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by ful-rac

A duct tape gaff on a broomstick!!! For shame jim! A master fabricator like yourself could fabricate somethin' a little bit better than that !

Looks can be deceiving.

That hardwood shaft is Yellow Poplar that's stained from use. The hook is hardened stainless and what looks like duct tape is actually stainless wire wrapped like twine. I made that gaff over 20 ears ago and it's still going strong.

[svendawg]

Originally Posted by Fiskadoro

How about something completely different.

Traditional bounce balling was done with boats where they could keep things moving by keeping the motors in gear, and a lot of gear or drag in the water wasn't an issue since they weren't paddling. Those methods work with a kayak but they are a big workout when kayaking and you can only effectively fish one rod at a time.

I think there are better ways to do this. Personally for Kayaking I use much lighter gear then I would use on a boat and single plugs vrs hoochies and flashers, and I only like to bounce ball on clean open sand like in SMB almost always in 40 to 75 feet of water.

There are two main reasons I use these rigs. Small floating plugs get bit well but unlike hoochies rapalas and plugs float up and do not snag up when you stop. Lighter line gear and smaller weights pull through the water with less effort, so I don't have to paddle as hard. This way I can fish two rods instead of one and fish longer without wearing myself out.

Gear wise I use 20 pound spectra on a conventional level wind like a ABU6500C. I put these on a light tipped six to seven foot parabolic rod (I use Kencor 10-30s)

I splice in ten feet of 20 or 15 pound fluorocarbon leader at the end of the spectra, and tie that to a 3 way swivel.

One the weight side of the three way I tie 2 feet of fluorocarbon with a snap at the end, so I can change out weights quickly. Weight wise I fish 4 to 12 ounces but usually 4, 6, and 8 ounce torpedo sinkers.


On the lure side I add three feet of the same the same test fluorocarbon leader. Lure wise I've tried dozens of things but narrowed it down to three baits.

Floating Rapalas:


Rapala X Raps


CD9 Cordell Redfins



So how does this all work?

First off I like to bounce ball perpendicular to the wind or going down wind. If I'm going upwind for an extended period of I usually only fish one rod, but I prefer two because it's way more effective.

I set up my yak so I can fish two rods that are always in front of me with rod holders pointed to either side. I want them in reach so I can quickly adjust them letting out more line or changing the drag.

On one I put on a lighter say four ounce weight on the other I use a heavier sinker like a eight ounce weight. and I fish them staggered with the heavy one in closer to the yak and the lighter one further back.

I first put out the lighter rig on the upwind side and I leave the reel in gear with a light slipping drag and paddle while it drops down. I then paddle forward maybe thirty or more feet letting line slip off the reel while it the weight drags on the bottom. When it's the correct distance back I tighten up to a strike setting. Tight enough to set the hook with the spectra but too lose to break the line if a fish runs hard. Put the clicker on, put it in the holder and that's the long rod.

I then put the heavy weighted one out using the same technique paddling as it goes down and letting it go back a bit. The big deal here is you want the light one far enough back that you do not tangle it when you drop the heavy one. You also want at least twenty feet between the baits once they are both on the bottom. The long one follows the short one with the heaviest weight closest to the yak, and you want them far enough back that both stay on the bottom almost all the time at about 1.2 knots.

Once they are both out on the bottom I then paddle forward with steady strokes watching the rod tips as both weights bounce steadily increasing speed until they are both off the bottom. I then stop paddling and watch them settle. The deal is you want both weights to come off the bottom at the same time and then hit the bottom at the same time.

Once you have that worked out you just paddle a few strokes forward, stop and wait till they hit bottom then paddle forward again. Some fish hit when you speed up some when the baits are settling. Always watch the rod tips, they can tell you about your speed, the bottom conditions, whether you have junk on your lures, etc. Not every fish slams these baits though some do. Some of the bites are just little taps so don't depend on the clicker, you want to always watch the rod tips to keep up with what's going on.

When you get a strike you don't stop or set the hook. Instead paddle forward hard picking up speed to get the yak and holder to hook the fish. With spectra you don't have to set the hook, you'll know when it's hooked because it'll start taking drag. If the fish is not hooked let it settle down again, then paddle forward again keep working the baits after a bite.

If the fish hooks up paddle forward and keep paddling for a while letting the line slip off the drag with the rod still in the holder. This is important. The deal is you want to keep that line tight while the butt does it's first big head shakes right after you hook it, because that's when it's most likely to spit the hook. Paddling forward keeps the line tight and the hook well set. Watch the rod tip bounce and lunges, you can tell what the fish is doing, and you want to wait till it starts to settle down before taking the rod out of the holder. It's just like trolling for tuna or Marlin in this respect. I essentially keep paddling hard until the rod loads up solid and the fish starts taking drag steady and smoothly. I then pick up the rod and reel it in.

Once you have a fish on you don't really have to clear the other rod. I like to turn the yak so that rod is on the upwind side and reel in the fish. If you let it sit the lure floats up it and stays off the bottom, on clean sand the sinker just drags and does not hang up. That's the real beauty of these rigs, is that they are pretty much hassle free and when it's windy you can even drift them just like bait. Often while I'm on one fish I'll hook another on on this dead stick but I leave it in the holder and work the first fish first.

If you get a strike and it misses on the first rod pay special attention to the second one as it's likely to get hit as well. Two strikes means a major concentration of fish or a hungry fish, be sure and hit that spot again. Personally I mark every strike I get on the GPS and after a while if you mark them you'll have a pattern that will tell you where to fish.

Color wise you want to match the bait and water clarity. Silver blue, blue white, black silver, black white, mackerel, sardine, even rainbow trout patterns all work. Whites for dirty water silver for clear is a good general rule. Size wise think Anchovies and Sardines. Anchovie size baits generally get bit the most but sometimes they really are into the bigger lures.

So that's the basic technique but a few extra things. The hooks on these lures rust fast, and are weak to begin with. I replace all mine with stainless hooks. Also when using deeper divers like the CD9 Redfin you want to shorten the leader to keep it from digging in the sand when your paddling.

Another thing that's important is you do not want to use heavy tackle. These lures are not made to be fished on heavy tackle, if you fish more then twenty pound you'll get less then half as many strikes, and fifteen will outperform twenty. Also on heavier gear the hooks will straighten and the lures can even break (especially CD9s) if you put too much pressure on them.

CD9s are really kind of crappy lures construction wise but they are especially good on rough days as the motion of the yak transfers to them and makes them dodge and lunge in a way that really get's bit. It's a better lure bite wise just poorly constructed, so keep an eye on them because they will break.

This technique in general is really really effective.

I've been using it for over two decades, and though I came up with it for fishing skiffs my first trip in a kayak I caught three halibut doing it. Often I don't buy bait and only fish plugs and I've caught more then I can count with the technique.

Honestly there are times it will out fish bait and you'll catch everything from Butts to Blacks to an occasional white seabass using it. I've caught soupfins but no threshers, but I'd suggest a reel that holds a lot of line just in case you hook something huge.

I've caught a lot of butts over ten pounds doing this and my largest is in the high twenties, but I have a friend that caught a nice thirty plus pound fish the first time he tried it so if you try it be ready for large fish.

At any rate that's how I bounce ball and it works fro me.

Jim

Thank you for sharing this info. I'm going to try out this technique down at Bahia Asuncion trip in January so I can outfish Makobob, Rossman and Budha

[makobob]

Originally Posted by svendawg

Thank you for sharing this info. I'm going to try out this technique down at Bahia Asuncion trip in January so I can outfish Makobob, Rossman and Budha

Sven, to bad we ALL saw the same info, what you need is secret info to catch that 1st YT for 2014.
BTW Sven, I'll show you a different technique for halibut while we are domn there.

Makobob