Sonar Discussion

[TCS]

Hello Gents,

I am on the verge of getting a sonar, and am evaluating my options. I'd like to stay under $450. I fish primarily in LJ and would like a model that could actually detect fish, rather than just a depth finder. GPS is nice to have but maybe not worth the extra cash for me. I have pasted in a table (that I put together myself because no easy comparisons were available) of some new and older Lowrance sonars. The DSI models are new. You will see that all of the DSI models have 4000w PTP and 455/800 khz. The older Elite 5 and Elite 5x have the watts, but lower kiloherz. Also, the Mark 5X DSI seems to have the same sonar capability as the other DSI models, with a big discount for the black and white display.

If I had to decide today I would probably get the new Mark 5X DSI for $300. If I decided I need color then I would probably be choosing between the Elite 5X DSI or the older Elite 5 with lower khz but with GPS. These two options appear to be about the same price. (I got the prices from an online electronics store. I assume the older models will get cheaper as the new ones hit the market in the next few weeks.)

1st question: what is the benefit of higher kiloherz?
2nd question: How important is color
3rd question: How important is GPS for someone who is pretty good with lineups at LJ?
4th question: Should I go with a different brand of sonar? If so, what do you like in the $400 range that can actually tell me when a WSB or YT is under my kayak?

	Elite 5	Elite 5X	Elite 5 DSI	Elite 5X DSI	Mark 5X DSI	Mark 5X Pro
Display Size	5 in \ 127 mm	5 in \ 127 mm	5 in \ 127 mm	5 in \ 127 mm	5 in \ 127 mm	5 in \ 127 mm
Display Resolution	480x480 (H x W)	480x480 (H x W)	480x480 (H x W)	480x480 (H x W)	480x480 (H x W)	480x480 (H x W)
Sonar Frequency	83/200 kHz	83/200 kHz	455/800 kHz	455/800 kHz	455/800 kHz	83/200 kHz
Sonar Output Power	Max 500W RMS, 4000W PTP W	Max 500W RMS, 4000W PTP W	Max Peak-To-Peak 4,000 W / RMS 500 W	Max Peak-To-Peak 4,000 W / RMS 500 W	Max Peak-To-Peak 4,000 W / RMS 500 W	Max 300W RMS, 2400W PTP W
Sonar Depth	Max 1000 ft \ 305 m	Max 1000 ft \ 305 m	Max 250 ft \ 76 m	Max 250 ft \ 76 m	Max 250 ft \ 76 m	Max 1000 ft \ 305 m
Price	$ 549	$ 479	649	$ 549	$ 299	$ 199
GPS	Yes	No	Yes	No	No	No

Thanks! Tom

[The Kid]

Lowrance HDS 5 if you want the GPS. If not HDS 5X.

Q1: Higher kHZ means you can read down into deeper water beyond 200 ft depending on finders. Although the band circumference becomes thinner.

Q2: MUST HAVE COLOR! It is extremely important because you can differentiate between different structures such as rocks, kelp, bait schools, predatory fish, squid, etc.

Q3: GPS pretty important around this time of year especially to mark certain areas where squid have bedded. As well as find your way around in the soup fog.

Q4: I like Lowrance products a lot (I love my hds 5x had it for more than a year), garmins seem to be good as well however they don't come with transducers. Pretty stupid! Hummingbird in my opinion. There are some other good ones, but they can get expense like Raymarine and Furuno.

One thing to remember the longer you own a certain finder the more you will learn as far as what is what. There are plenty of anglers out there doing just fine with low end finders. Its like learning anything else in fishing certain things start to become familiar the more you experience it.

Good luck Tom!

[wade]

Thanks for bringing up this subject i was just going to post something similar..

i am contemplating dropping 3-7 biils on a real unit finally..
gps isnt a major factor...but may be nice if there is a comparable unit on the market. I'm leaning towards that HDS-5...
any suggestions greatly appreciated..

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by The Kid

Q1: Higher kHZ means you can read down into deeper water beyond 200 ft depending on finders. Although the band circumference becomes thinner.

That is actually kinda incorrect.

Sonars work with pressure waves or what we consider sound. khz is not describing power but the frequency, pitch or osculation of the sound wave used by the transducer. Essentially the transducer sends out sound then draws it's picture by what returns in the form of an echo. So a transducer acts like a speaker and mic both sending out sound and receiving and logging the reflections or echo returns.

A 200khz or 200,000 cycles per second sound wave gives lots of detail because it sends a lot of waves out per second there is a lot to reflect back but the trade off is that lower frequency sounds carry farther and therefor can give detail from a greater distance.

It's like the rumble of thunder: the further from the storm you are the less crack you hear and the more rumble, or like in a parade where with a marching band you always hear the drums first as they march toward you.

Humans perceive various frequencies of sound waves as various pitch. Musical notes correspond to precise frequencies or hertz. The higher the frequency the higher the note. We can hear sound from 20hz to roughly 20,000 hertz or 20 khz. Sonars use pitches we can not hear, though other animals like whales and dolphins can hear some of the lower frequency sonars.

200khz is standard for shallow water sonars as it gives you good detail in shallow water, lower numbers give you less detail but higher penetration, so the more expensive finders have numerous lower KHZ settings for fishing deep.

For instance a furuno FCV1100 has six khz settings preset for 6000 to 16 feet at 28/38/50/88/107/200kHz

Back on topic the DSI finders are using 455/800 kHz capable transducers. Think of them as supper high pitched sonar. The idea is they should give incredible detail. I have not used one but the science makes sense as these higher frequencies send double to four times the amount of compressed sound in waves per second than a standard 200khz transducer.

More waves means more waves reflected back per second and more data for the finders transducer to pick up and create an image with. Bottom line these finders have more reflected data to work with, and depending on how it's interpreted that should give a much clearer picture of what's down there when in shallow water then traditional 200khz sounders.

The trade off is they do not go as deep. Check the numbers the DSI units are only rated for 250 feet. I'd say that is a little too specialized for me.

No doubt these will be ideal for shallow water bass fishing in freshwater where they rarely fishing in water deeper then 60 feet. My question would be how well do they do in say 100 to 150 feet of water, where I like to fish for Yellows and need to see squid on the bottom.

I also like to go deep occasionally and fish rockfish at 300+ feet. Even at 200khz my current sounder can see them, the DSI I units won't work for fish that deep..

If I was making finders I'd make a dual frequency 200khz 455khz unit that could read to say 400ft but still give more detail in shallow water, but I don't see that on the Lowrance menu.

Jim

[Jzo]

Great topic, thx for sharing everyone.

[TCS]

Here are the specs for the HDS. copied from the Lowrance site. Lower, selectable kiloherz. The sonar power output is described differently than the others, so its a little hard to compare.

	HDS 5
Sonar Frequency	50/200 or 83/200 kHz
Transducer Type	Choice of dual frequency Skimmer®
Sonar Output Power	Max Max 250W Peak to Peak (31W RMS) actual; 30,000W Peak to Peak analog equivalent W
Sonar Depth	Max 5000 ft \ 1524 m

[j mo]

Ha you must have some holiday loot burning a hole in your pocket too. Ive polled quite a few people on this very question.

The DSI models you listed will not be avail till spring, very cool technology however I spoke w Lowrance and this technology is mainy designed for lakes/shallow(er) settings not 150' + though they say it has been tested up tp 200 feet, confirming what Jim posted. However, If you are going to fish shallower settings like ~50 feet you may want to hold out untill it hits the shelves.


I setteld on the The HDS 5 (w out gps) functionality/price. Also The HDS series are upgradable. You can have the DSI technology as well if you want a sonar that is worth more than your yak...


Both Garmin and Lowrance will be intriducing new new technology that will come out over the next 2 years and will be game changing...The fish wont stand a chance, and I might be able to see/find my precious tld 5 along w Daveys Locker

Best

[Iceman]

We talked to Lowrance at a trade show in regards to the new DSI. The transducer has to be mounted in contact with the water, you can not shoot through hull to get the new imaging. The transducer is only the size of a shotgun shell so it should fit in the channels of most kayaks.

I personally think Lowrance has the best built products for the harsher kayak environment.

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by Iceman

We talked to Lowrance at a trade show in regards to the new DSI. The transducer has to be mounted in contact with the water, you can not shoot through hull to get the new imaging. The transducer is only the size of a shotgun shell so it should fit in the channels of most kayaks. I personally think Lowrance has the best built products for the harsher kayak environment.

Yeah I figured that the transducer would have to be in the water to take advantage of the higher frequency, though I did not say it. It makes sense that the higher the frequency the more effect the hull would have on it.

As to the best I'd say that both are good: I'm just used to Garmin and like their GPS technology but it's really a matter of personal choice. I will honestly say I think Lowrance has better imaging. Still you can't beat Garmin when it comes to being waterproof, or standing up to a wet environment.

Jim

[THE DARKHORSE]

You'll shoot your eye out!

[TCS]

Good discussion. Except that I don't understand the joke about shooting my eye out. Just a little slow I guess!

So here is what I have so far.

Lower khz: good for my application.
Color: required
Lowrance: good choice
GPS: still optional for me, I have a compass to make sure I don't get lost.

Here is my big remaining question:
If I get the Elite 5X instead of the HDS 5, how much difference will there be in actually seeing fish at LJ? The elite does seem to have a lot of power, but the peak to peak is different? Is there anybody that has experience with these two units that can compare performance?

Thanks!

[flydigital]

Buddy has Elite 5, I have the HDS. The screen resolution is a little better with the HDS. Sonar returns a little stronger and more separated. HDS is "high def" sonar which in practice actually has more power even though the ratings look much different.

Either one is great. As to how much difference, I would say you get about a 10-20% increase in overall performance with the HDS. If you know your stuff it might make a difference. For me, being pretty much a sonar novice, I don't think it matters much. If I did it again I would get the Elite 5 and save a couple hundred. Not that I don't like the HDS!

[Iceman]

Far, ar, ar, ar, ar, ar, ar, ar, ar.

No, No, it's not Far, ar, ar.

It's Lar, ar, ar, ar, ar, ar, ar, ar...

Mary Christmas, Tom

[-scallywag-]

Buy from West Marine, and get the Plus protection warrenty......no questions asked exchanges (i've tried it a few times, NO QUESTIONS, in and out in under 10minutes)!!!!

Although it's annoying that the manufacturers make you pay an extra $2-300 just for GPS capability when you could buy a cheep handheld for under $100, I'll still kick down the extra cash for the combo unit....less clutter on deck, one less battery to charge/forget....always knowing your drift direction and speed is priceless....not to mention the safety aspects...its worth it!!!

[IntrntFshrman]

Hrrrr., gaahhhhh *(*(&%&%$&^%( BUMPUHSSEZZZZ!!!

(as dogs eat turkey...)

[mtnbykr2]

I have to agree with scally on this one internal gps much better than adding it on, I did the add on deal lasted a week, changed up to internal
gps and use it frequently...color, nice...but spendy

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by TCS

GPS: still optional for me, I have a compass to make sure I don't get lost.

The GPS is not about getting lost it's about finding fish.

In Santa Monica bay I mark every halibut I catch as a waypoint on the gps, so when I go out to fish butts in the bay I can see every halibut I have caught in the past. Halibut like to hang in certain areas near structure, so the map of former halibut gives me a good idea where to target them.


At La Jolla I mark yellows I catch, squid concentrations, seabass I have caught, even rocks etc...So say I know there is squid around. I paddle to the old squid marks and often they are right there.

The GPS also gives you real time info on where you have been. For instance I leave the tracking on so I can see the line of my path. Say I get bit on a drift, I just paddle back up the same line and drift the same spot.

Say I hook a fish. well since you generally drift in a straight line you can tell where you hooked up by the change in course seen on the gps so you can go back and fish the exact same spot. If I find fish I stay on them all day or sometimes leave and come back to them, using the GPS.

I like the GPS combo units because it's easier to see, and I'll often split the screen so I can see my track, and the sonar at the same time.




I take a handheld as a back up but hardly use it.

In that pic you can see I'm working a an area that has bait (spanish mackeral) from the meter but you can also see on the gps that I'm working an area that I've been fishing all day by the tracks, and just north of an area where I hooked up a yellow earlier, that I marked with a MOB marker, which was just off the high spot marked on the chart. That is real time info that is great to have on the water.Bottom line is the GPS is a tool to keep track of and find fish.

The perfect example of this for me is the day I got my 40+ yellow at La Jolla. I caught a thirty pound fish in the morning and fished around that spot off and on all day. Slightly in and down current from that location I found a small spot of young squid, little three inchers holding tight on the bottom. By use of the GPS I kept track of them all day, though I did not catch anything off them, all afternoon. Right before dark I was fishing in closer to the kelp talking to Josh, who was fishing halibut. He told me the yellows were not biting in the evening, that it was a waste of time, as the squid were too spread out. I said there is this small pod of squid over there (to the north) about a 100yds,, I'd been watching them all day,and that I thought the yellows will hit them right before dark.

Finally I said: Well.... I got to go hit them, as now's the time.

I paddled over to the spot using the gps, found the squid with the finder , set up a drift to take me right over them using the past drift tracks as a guide, put down a bait, and as soon as I got to the squid I hooked up a forty plus yellow.

I would of never found that fish without the gps, for me it's just as important as having sonar.

Jim

[steveooo]

Another vote for GPS. For all the reasons mentioned above, plus the ability to look at depth contour charts and find out some new areas/lumps/holes/stones/ridges/peaks/canyons that you never would find otherwise. Also, instead of marking places where I have caught fish, I just mark off all of the areas that i am certain do NOT hold fish. I got plenty of those waypoints if anyone wants them

[GregAndrew]

I agree with what Scallywag and Flydigital said, and I have the Elite 5. I don't believe there is no old Elite 5 though, it is a new model itself (lots of places do not have them in stock). For me, built in GPS is well worth the price for marking everything mentioned while not having to fish another device out.