braid for irons?

[SDTribal]

Is it ok to use braid with a flouro top shot for irons or is mono the ideal line?

[Siebler]

You want the Stretch that mono provides. You need to fish a tight drag with the Iron as you do not Set the hook as you would a live bait, you just wind into the bite. With Spectra/ Flouro you risk that fish snapping the line due to a lack of give when he turns for the initial run. Plus Mono is more forgiving when/if you backlash.

40-50lb mono is my choice. Izorline First String is the most popular line your going to find for Iron. Theres a reason that most deckhands and captains along with the best of Jig fishermen use this combination.

[dniss]

OK, CJ. Now I'd like to know which knot you prefer to stitch your mainline to your leader when you fish this rig? As always, great info. Thanks.

[SDTribal]

thanks that helps a lot

[Siebler]

There is no knot/ leader. I fish straight mono all the way to the spool. The Jig is tied to the Mono using a Double San Diego.

When using a Mono Top Shot over spectra I use a Dacron Loop.

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by SDTribal

Is it ok to use braid with a flouro top shot for irons or is mono the ideal line?

How about the other side of the coin.

Some people think that spectra with it's lack of stretch is not good for Iron.

That is largely due to the fact they are used to fishing Iron with Mono and try to fish Iron on spectra exactly the same way they would fish jigs on mono.

That does not work but that does not mean that spectra is not a good choice for fishing Iron.

Spectra actually has some definite advantages over mono when it comes to fishing Iron but you have to makes some changes, or adapt your fishing style to spectra in order to use it correctly.


I've been fishing spectra for a decade now, and I use braid with Irons all the time. In fact it's all I use. I prefer thirty or forty pound power pro with a short top shot of twenty five or thirty pound Fluorocarbon.


The spectra do to it's lack of stretch changes the way you you have fish Iron, but it definitely works.

I fish a lot of local Yellowfin with Iron and spectra...


When it comes to strike power, pound for pound nothing hits harder on Iron then Yellowfin.

With Mono's stretch you have to run a tight drag and swing on the fish hard even with Yellowfin to get a good hook set with Iron. You have to depend on the rod to compensate for monos stretch which explains the popularity of fast tapper stiff rods for fishing mono. You don't have to do any of that with spectra. In fact if you do fish that way with spectra you will loose fish.

I'm not talking huge changes but what you have to do is run a lighter drag setting, and not swing on fish like with mono, then Spectra works just fine for Iron.


For Yellowfin, Yellowtail, Calicos even Halibut you actually just do not have to set the hook hard when fishing Iron like you do with Mono. The lack of stretch makes setting the hook far far easier.

Just keep reeling and if the fish holds on to Iron he's going to get hooked. No swinging needed. It's just as simple as reeling into the fish, kind of like what you do with a circle hook. Your not using the rod to set the hook as much as the reel and the lack of stretch in the line. It's actually so much easier to set the hook fish with spectra, you just don't have to put all that physical energy into driving the hook in.

Since you do not have to fish the drag as tight to hook them generally I run a fairly light drag initially. That absorbs some of the strike energy. I keep the drag lighter till the fish is hooked and then tighten it up once the fish is running or get's settled down.

Like Siebler said if you fish Spectra like Mono with a tight drag and hard hook sets with a fast taper rod, you can pop off fish. No doubt, but that is a problem of technique, not spectra.

Once you realize you don't have to make up for monos stretch the other benefits of fishing spectra become apparent.

Truth is Spectra has a few advantages over mono with Iron.

One you can simply cast further. With it's smaller diameter it cuts through the wind better, and you can use smaller reels that cast for better due to the smaller mass of their spools. The lack of stretch makes it easier to set the hook as I already said. The irons sink faster on the drop with spectra and unlike with mono if a fish even breaths on your Iron on the drop you can feel it.

I'd say 80% of the tuna I get on Iron offshore with eat the bait on the drop, with spectra you simply feel more strikes, fish you might miss on mono.

The drawback of spectra with Iron though is backlashes.

The lack of stretch means it's completely unforgiving on a backlash. If it snarls up the bait stops instantly and this can pop off your lure or damage your spectra on the reel end. Spectra is tough with abrasion but has a very low heat tolerance. In a backlash the line rubbing against the line on the reel can burn the spectra and make it weak at that point. That in turn can come back to haunt you when You hook a good fish. You can't always see these burns so you have to be very careful about backlashes. If you do backlash you want to check the line and strip off any line that might be damaged. Fortunately with spectra your reel holds more line, so taking a little off the top won't kill you. The gyst is though... you never want to backlash.

For this reason you want to use a reel with an exceptional casting brake system.

I use penn 525mags for casting with Spectra..



It's a perfect reel for the application.

Lately I've tried spinning reels as well and have very good luck with the Penn slammer seies of reels:



I never thought I'd be a Penn guy again but those are my top choices for casting spectra right now.

A Penn 525mag even with the mag brake set to full will outcast any conventional reel I have fished with when it comes to spectra. Proporly set up and used will almost never backlash.

The slammers have enough drag to fish spectra, and of course they do not backlash at all.

Spectra unlike mono can take a twist so line twist is a non issue with spectra, with it's small diameter and lack of line memory spectra casts amazingly well off spinning reels. It's far batter for casting then mono when using spinning gear. Honestly Spinning reels cast spectra like some proverbial wet dream.

I have a Penn 560 slammer that I put on 8ft Sabre with 30 powerpro for distance offshore. That rig will outcast anything I have ever seen with a four ounce mega bait. I'm talking maybe a 150yards plus. Sometime it goes so far you can't even see it hit the water.

Just like the reel choice and drag settings are different for spectra the rod choice is another issue where a little adaption can make a huge difference.

For years the fishing industry has moved toward fast taper, stiffer rods. The reason why is that such rods are better at feeling strikes, setting the hook and pumping fish to the boat fast.

Those fast taper rods compensate for the stretch in mono, but once you get rid of that stretch, those rods are no longer ideal, and they are not that great for fishing spectra.

Since spectra has very little stretch every lunge or head shake of the fish travels straight up the line to your rod. A stiff fast taper rod transmits that energy directly to your hands and to the reel. In contrast a more parabolic rod absorbs those shocks and shakes further into the rod blank, so unlike a fast taper rod a parabolic rod acts like a shock absorber absorbing energy from those head shakes etc.

Additionally parabolic rods are simply easier to fish with as they reduce the amount of leverage the fish has, or essentially increases your leverage over the fish.

This has to do with the effective rod length. Take two identical 8ft rods, with different tapers and put the same load on each. The more parabolic rod bends more down further into the blank. If you measured the actual distance from the tip to the handle when bent with load the more parabolic rod is a foot or more shorter in distance. that length is the effective length of the rod under load. The more parabolic the rod the shorter the effective rod length, the greater leverage you have over the fish. It's just a matter of simple leverage. A shorter rod can put more pressure on a fish then a longer rod, but in the same manner a more parabolic rod can put more pressure on a fish with the same effort by angler then a fast taper rod while at the same time reducing and the absorbing shock form the fish and spectra.

Bottom line Parabolic rods are just simply better for fishing spectra.

Rod wise I look for more parabolic older style glass rods. Glass seekers are good, old Glass Sabres are good, Kencors are good. Personally I use Sabres and Kencors. Lots of guys bag on Kencors for being to whippy or parabolic but that is exactly why they are ideal for fishing spectra.

If I had have only one rig for fishing Iron it would be a 7ft Z7X1030 Kencor Zebra with a Penn 525 Mag, filled with forty pound Powerpro, witha short top of 30 pound Seagar Fluoro..


Hey what can I say: I'm not expert, but it works for me.

Jim

[dniss]

You sound pretty damn expert to me, or at least experienced and thoughtful. Thanks for you willingness to share. This kind of dope really helps relative noobs like me in making choices about hardware, rigs, and techniques. It's nice to hear someone favoring a spinning reel approach to fishing larger quarry, 'specially since my 500l casting sucks in general, especially from a sitting position. I'm afraid to cast it now that it's strung with spectra for fear of backlash/line burn issues. Gonna have to budget for one a them pretty Penn spinners...

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by dniss

You sound pretty damn expert to me, or at least experienced and thoughtful. Thanks for you willingness to share......

Your welcome. You know how it is.... people are always uptight about giving up their conventional wisdom on things, but ultimately they come around.

I remember when I saw my first spectra. Izor was the first to put it out local and initially they had nothing below 35lbs test.

I bought a spool of of white 35lbs Izor Spectra, dyed it Blue with spray paint and acetone, and tied on a eight foot topshot of thirty mono, and then took it tuna fishing. People actually thought I was totally insane. They treated me like some village Idiot that didn't know what I was doing fishing that small lever drag with thirty pound. I caught a ton of fish with it over the next few years including this nice 45+ albicore....


(you can see the TLD5 in the picture)

....but at the time I was the only person using a small lever drag with spectra that I knew. I actually had guys on party boats tell me it was unsafe to use and to not fish it.... It was a total trip.

Now to me it was just a obvious way to go. All I needed to fish tuna capacity wise was 300yds of line. With the diameter of the 35 spectra, baits would swim better with it, and I could fish a relatively small reel with a lighter spool weight to maximize bait presentation, but the problem back then was the reels in that size range did not have a enough drag to fish it.

The TLD5 with it's superior drag was the only reel in that size range that could fish thirty pound. So it was the ticket then and I still use them today.

Now in hindsight it's all easy to see. A decade later the market is filled with small lever drags designed for spectra, but back then no-one saw it coming.

Shimano certainly didn't, they had just discontinued the TLD5. They could of put it back into production and had a jump on the competition, but they didn't.. Back then those reels sold for 75 dollars new, Now they fetch 185 dollars on ebay. Shimano screwed themselves big time because they not only lost a potential money maker in the TLD5 but they also completely lost the small lever drag spectra market to Avet as a result of thier inaction.

I mean I just bought a Tyrnos 8 the other day..

...and it's a great reel. It's smaller then the TLD5 with a stronger frame, a faster gear ratio, and enough drag to fish forty pound, but in all fairness that reel is ten years too late for Shimano. They had a great shot and they missed it.

Where small lever drags have advanced largely due to Avet everything else is still lagging behind. Rod manufacturers are still pushing fast taper rods, even though they are less then ideal for spectra. Though there are some great small bass reels for casting spectra like the ABU Revo STX but there are few larger star drag reels with mag brakes for spectra. The Penn 525mag is the only one I have found that works well. I would love to find a similar sized mag replacement for my Daiwa SL20Shs but no-one makes one right now. You may have noticed that in the top Yellowfin photos I'm using a Daiwa Saltist 20H, that one is magged but I had to mag it myself. Penn to their credit is going to market one that size this year. The Penn 515MAG. Penn has already released a prototype of that reel and their new rebuilt 525MAG.


They sent those those particular reels as prototypes for testing in England. http://24-7sac.org.uk/Tackle-Testing.php

The Brit casting nuts give it glowing reviews: "Although the penn 515mag and the 525magare not really designed to tournament casting they performed really well casting our leads over 220yards"

I'll be buying one of those reels as soon as Penn puts them on sale here.

Spinning reels and spectra is going to be the next big thing though. Traditionally spinning reels are only good for up to thirty pound or really twenty pound if you want casting distance because mono is so stiff and the diameter is too big for spinning technology after you get past thirty pound.

Well spectra changes all that, and this time the manufactures are actually ahead of the curve. Shimano is marketing high end spinning reels to the long range crowd but I have no use for a $600+ spinning reel that's designed for fishing 80lbs spectra. I honestly think they are targeting the wrong market with the high end popper crowd, but they love to market to long range because those guys spend cash like nobuddies business.

Penn's marketing the Slammers like the one I mention above for under $150, and I am very impressed with those reels, as they are much better suited to local fishing..

Like I said My Penn 560 will cast 30lbs spectra further then any reel I have ever used. It also will cast the lightest pinhead chovie and flyline it like a dream. It's designed for spectra has enough drag for thirty pound, has a 1/4 inch stainless steel spool shaft and an instant anti reverse just like a conventional reel. I've beat tuna to thirty pounds with it and it's just an amazing reel. I also purchased a penn 760 slammer and spooled it with 450yds of forty power pro. That reel has the drag of a 4/0 senator, It's big maybe too much for La Jolla but I'm planning to use it for pitching baits to Marlin Offshore this year.

Ultimately I think Spectra is going to have a bigger impact on the use of spinning gear then it has had on conventional gear, but it's going to take a while for people to wrap their heads around that and catch on to it's benefits.

If you spool up a spinning reel with spectra and take it down to La Jolla you may find your the only guy out there with that gear on any given day. People may look at you funny, who knows they might even tell you it's unsafe to use, but the bottom line is that you will be able to outcast those guys and if the reel is made to fish spectra you will be able to land the fish you hook on it.

What I'm saying here is that you might be one of the first guys out there with that gear but you won't be the last because more people are eventually going to figure out the benefits of this gear down the line and then more people will end up using it. It just might take another decade before it really catches on.

At any rate good luck.

Jim

[MarkT]

I don't use fluoro with iron. Iron is a reaction bite and the fluoro doesn't add anything save expense. Save the fluoro for a pick bait bite.

I've seen people throwing iron with straight mono but you better bring your A game as there's zero margin for error. I prefer enough mono over the spectra that I'm casting with the mono, not the spectra. I don't want the knot going through the guides on the cast and I don't want to cast with the spectra to avoid spectra backlashes. I save the short topshots for baitfishing or kelp cutter rigs. I use a San Diego knot for tieing on the iron.

While I love my 525 mag and will pick up the Squall 515 when it comes out I prefer a larger spool diameter for casting the iron. I prefer a reel like a Daiwa SLX40, Torium 20, Penn 545 GS or the classsic Newell 332. The line comes off the larger spool smoother and it doesn't have to spin as fast which also helps with backlashes.

[Jimmyz123]

Originally Posted by SDTribal

Is it ok to use braid with a flouro top shot for irons or is mono the ideal line?

From my trials on the water I too have found that going Mono from spool to iron works the best for me. Last year I lost an iron to a cuda going braid to iron. No give and it snapped. Switched to my mono and landed each cuda after that.

Spectra has its advantages but at the same time so does Mono. I like to keep fishing simple.

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by MarkT

While I love my 525 mag and will pick up the Squall 515 when it comes out I prefer a larger spool diameter for casting the iron. I prefer a reel like a Daiwa SLX40, Torium 20, Penn 545 GS or the classsic Newell 332. The line comes off the larger spool smoother and it doesn't have to spin as fast which also helps with backlashes.

For larger heavier Iron bigger then a 6xjr I actually do like the larger diameter spooled reels. The problem is I don't know of any that come magged directly from the manufacturer, so I don't really like them for spectra, and don't really use them that much. The exception being that I do have a Saltist 30T that I magged myself and occasionally use for heavy Iron with 50 Power Pro Spectra with a short forty pound Fluoro topshot. For topshots I always use fluoro because I just don't buy Mono any more.

Mark I kid you not I was just looking at my SL50SH, SLX50, SLX40, Torium20, and Avet JX and thinking man I should just sell those suckers. Your welcome to them.

Last time I used one was the Torium down at PV where I landed a 90 pound YFT on it. If I'm not mistaken it's the only real fish I ever put on the thing.

Jim

[MarkT]

Don't knock 'appopriate' reels. I still have a Torium 20, Penn 545 GS, ProGear 545, Avet JX and a ProGear 540 (larger capacity but same width as the others). I use the Torium and both 545's for iron with 30#. The JX and PG are for 40#... both surface and yoyo. For yoyo I still have an old YTS that gets the job done.

I throw Tady 45's, C's (and similar) on 30# with these for the 3B's. I throw 45's, Salas 7X lites, etc on 40# for YT. I tie 6xJr's, 6x, #5 and #6 onto 40# and drop/toss them over the side... I don't usually tie one on and throw for the horizon but I did when we got into a bite on log cuda on a muli-day trip and all I had for iron were the yoyo jigs.

Locally, I throw iron for the 3B's on 25# on a Torium 16, ProGear 280, Avet MXJ or Penn 535 GS. I'll probably take one of these on a 690J out on Sunday.

[newguy01]

Originally Posted by Jim Day

For larger heavier Iron bigger then a 6xjr I actually do like the larger diameter spooled reels. The problem is I don't know of any that come magged directly from the manufacturer, so I don't really like them for spectra, and don't really use them that much. The exception being that I do have a Saltist 30T that I magged myself and occasionally use for heavy Iron with 50 Power Pro Spectra with a short forty pound Fluoro topshot. For topshots I always use fluoro because I just don't buy Mono any more.

Mark I kid you not I was just looking at my SL50SH, SLX50, SLX40, Torium20, and Avet JX and thinking man I should just sell those suckers. Your welcome to them.

Last time I used one was the Torium down at PV where I landed a 90 pound YFT on it. If I'm not mistaken it's the only real fish I ever put on the thing.

Jim

how did you magged your reels lastist?

thanks

[-scallywag-]

I've read alot about fishing spectra on the iron (mostly for plugs) and have tried it out a couple times on a few jig sticks/reels, and the three biggest draw backs for me are,
A) guiding the line back on the reel with my thumb, and getting picked up on the retreive (ouch!!!)

B) as Jim pointed out, The line is easily damaged by backlash, exc.. and the damage is hard to see, and since i suck and 99% of my backlashes happen with boiling fish around, cutting line and re-tieing kinda takes me out of the game.

C) You just cant put as much pressure on 50lb spectra as you can 40lb mono, and since on the yak you are almost always near lobster bouys, anchor lines, structure, kelp ,exc... it really helps to be able to lock the drag down without worrying too much about straitening hooks or popping the line...although as Jim pointed out, drag settings and rod action make a huge difference when fishing spectra. Once the fish is on, mono is much more forgiving.

In LJ from the Yak I use #65 spectra + 40/30 or 20flouro leader for all my bait poles, my yoyo and jig sticks are 40lb mono.

BUT....Almost all those issues are not a problem if you go to a spinning reel, and as kooky and far fetched as it sounds I think Jim is right on about the spinners and spectra being superior, but I don't see them becoming popular with the avarage "SoCal" fisherman because it's just not "cool".

- Lifted Diesel 4x4's with huge shiney rims/tires that never see dirt or a trailer = COOL

- Out casting/catching the deadheads on the bow using a coffie grinder & spectra = NOT COOL

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by newguy01

how did you magged your reels

I magged the reel with two D61 Neodymium Rare Earth Disc Magnets.

Basically I stuck I piece of stainless alloy in the side of the reel, glued it in with super glue, then stuck a couple of the rare earth magnets I had sitting around on to it.

I wish I could say this was some profound feat of engineering but in all honesty this is probably the easiest mod I have ever done on a reel, as it only took maybe 15 minutes, and I did not even bother to take the reel off the rod.

I just sheered the stainless with my foot sheer. Cleaned it and the sideplate with some acetone, and then glued stainless tab in place with super glue.

The magnets just stick right on it.

No pics but here's an Avet SX I did the same way.






The magnets are on there good, hard to pry back off once on, and they do not seem to want to shift or move. The only issue I can think of would be corrosion of the magnets themselves, but since I can change them out and have cheap supply of them supply this should not be a big deal. They are chromed and I grease them, but set, but I may end up looking at various ways to seal them in the future.

Here's the video of some testing with my Avet SX after the conversion I did.

In the test the reel is filled with thirty pound Power Pro spectra and I'm casting a 2 ounce tennis ball, as you can see the reel does not backlash even though I am not thumbing the spool during the cast and I'm consistently casting maybe forty to fifty yards. I could of cast it further but there's limitations due to the size of the lot, and the power lines.

Fun stuff... that works!!

Jim

[MarkT]

Originally Posted by -scallywag-

- Out casting/catching the deadheads on the bow using a coffie grinder & spectra = NOT COOL

I dunno, that sounds way cool to me.

[newguy01]

thanks jim for the info iam going to try it in mw 2speed avet and my saltist 20. any suggestion on where to get the magnet?

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by newguy01

thanks jim for the info iam going to try it in mw 2speed avet and my saltist 20. any suggestion on where to get the magnet?

I'd buy them here: http://www.kjmagnetics.com/