Braid, Flourocarbon, Spectra...

[janines.fishtales@cox.net]

Hey all. I would like to put some new line on my reels in preparation for a LJ trip. I am pretty old school and was raised on monofiliament. There's all this new stuff now, Braided line, flouro carbon, spectra etc... If I would like to maybe throw a surface iron or yoyo, what should I be using? If I want to drop a mackeral or some other bait fish down to the bottom, what should I be using? For that matter, if I want to flyline a bait, again, what are people using for that? Is Spectra a braided line? What pound tests should I be using? The same question applies to flouro leaders. What types and pound tests should I be using? I plan on shopping via Bass Pro shop site because I got gift certificate for gifts. Any info is appreciated!

[JeffB]

Spectra and are the same thing, no difference. I personally like to throw 65lb braid with a 25lb-50lb leader of floro. All depends on how clear the water is on how light of a leader and the length of my leaders. Clear water days I go with a 8'-12' of 30lb floro. Murky water day I go with a 4'-5' leader 40lb-50lb. This is what I use when throwing a dropper loop or yoyo'n' a jig. As for my surface iron I prefer straight mono, 30lb. The reasoning for it is that I get a nice clean throw through my guides and went I set the hook the line gives(stretches). I like a bit stiffer rod so that I can launch it and it allows me not to rip the bait out of the fishes mouth. As far as fly line, I just use braid with about a 20'-25' floro leader. I'm new to fly lining, so not sure what is exactly preferred.

This is what I like to do, and not what you have to do. I know that there will probably be more people reply and disagree with some of what I do. Good luck to you. Best thing about braid is that you can load 1.5x the line on your reel and if you get into kelp, it will cut it.


Another thing, mono floats and that's another reason I use it for surface baits. Braid and floro both sink down nicely.

[janines.fishtales@cox.net]

Nice. Thanks Jeff. That helps.
Janine

[Cbad Mike]

Pretty complete there Jeff.


Janine,
I think you will be pretty good to go if you follow Jeff's post.
I use 65# braid and my top shots are always 30# of mono but different lengths.
I'll start with maybe 20-25 feet and then cut it shorter as it gets scuffed and cloudy.
If you haven't spooled braid on your reels before, search the older posts to see the way different guys are doing it. I personally first spool 50 or so yards of 30# mono then Uni to Uni it to 300 yards of braid then Uni to Uni my 30# top shot.
You can learn more than you could ever want to by doing a search here on BWE to read the older posts on the subject.

I hope this helps some and I'll see ya OTW soon.

Mike

[janines.fishtales@cox.net]

Ok. That does help. Why the mono first on the spool? So you don't use as much braid? Also, you like mono and not floro carbon for your leader.
What's all the hoopla about floro anyway?

Janine

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by janines.fishtales@cox.net

Is Spectra a braided line? What pound tests should I be using? The same question applies to flouro leaders. What types and pound tests should I be using? I plan on shopping via Bass Pro

Most Fishing line is made from thermoplastic.

Spectra is braided line made from Ultra High molecular weight polyethylene (UHMWPE) thermoplastic fibres, Dacron is braided from Polyethylene terephthalate (PET) thermoplastic fibres. Though they share some similar properties Ultra High molecular weight polyethylene is superior, a incredibly tough material with the highest strength of any thermoplastic.

Because of it's strength, density, and lack of stretch you can make much thinner line out of it pound for pound test. It's about the toughest stuff you can make line out of, other then aramid synthetics like Kevlar, and because it's plastic it's a lot cheaper to make then the aramids.

Spectra is great for fishing because you can feel more with it set the hook easier and with it's thin diameter it has less drag in the water, and cuts through kelp. The only real weakness it has is heat. It's plastic so it melts. This can be an issue when you cross lines with someone that has a hard running fish on or when you backlash, but other then that it's pretty great stuff.

Another issue for fishing is that it's not transparent which is why we use top-shots of fluorocarbon.

Fluorocarbon line is made from polyvinylidene difluoride (PVDF) a thermoplastic fluropolymer. Traditional Monofiliment is made from nylon a polymer. PVDF is PVDF in other words all true 100% fluorocarbon is the same so the only differences between brands is the manufacturing quality. Nylon because it is a polymer or a mixture can vary. So the actual line material with mono changes slightly by who made it and what's in it.

Fluorocarbon has a higher molecular density which makes it sink, and also increases it's abrasion resistance, it also makes it stiffer then mono. It also has closer light refraction to water which makes it far less visible to fish then mono. So it's not only less visible, it's also tougher then mono, more resistant to abrasion and cutoffs from fish that have teeth.

So enough theories how about in practice. Spectra is going to be thinner, tougher, with less stretch then what your used to. With it's small diameter it's going to take more to fill the reel unless you use backing. It's also going to be harder for you to splice. I'd say start out with 65lbs Power Pro spectra as it's cheap and easy to learn with.

You can get it here:

http://www.basspro.com/PowerPro-Braided-Spectra-Fiber-Micro-Filament-Line-300-Yards/product/44283/

With that you can fish either thirty or forty pound fluorocarbon topshots.

Some just use leader material. For lighter tests I often use 100% fluorocarbon line for topshots to save money.

I've used all these and they all work.

http://www.basspro.com/Berkley-Vanis...product/20390/

http://www.basspro.com/Berkley-Vanis...product/71883/

http://www.basspro.com/PLine-Fluoroc...product/44286/

http://www.basspro.com/Seaguar-Fluor...product/30722/

http://www.basspro.com/Seaguar-INVIZ...product/89311/

Personally I only use 6 to 8 foot topshots, even shorter if I'm, fishing dropper loop or in the kelp. The big thing is your going to need to learn a good splice. One you can easily tie on the water. That 65 spectra is not going to break when you get hung or bust off a fish it's going to happen at the splice or topshot. Personally I use the Tony Pena knot. I can tie it fast on the water, and usually and then put a dab of super glue to it, which I always carry with me. It works for me.

A word of warning here: Say your out hang up and break off at your splice, but you don't have any more fuorocarbon leader with you. Your going to be tempted to tie your spectra directly to your hook or Iron. That may work but keep in mind that one you tie directly your not going to able to break the line if you snag, hang up or hook something huge like a big thresher shark. 65 spectra is great, but you always want a topshot so you can break off if something goes wrong. In other words learn a good splice and always carry extra leader material with you because you are going to need it on the water.

Some other things. When you start out try using a rod with a little lighter tip then your used to, and also I would suggest running a little lighter drag as well. The light tip will absorb some of the shock and make up for the lack of stretch and the lighter drag will allow for hard lunges of the fish till your used to spectra. Also always keep your line tight. With less stretch it's easier for the fish to slack the line if your not paying attention. Other then that it's just fishing, don't freak out you'll get used to it and the first time your fish takes you into kelp you'll be a spectra convert.

Good fishing to you, Jim

[Cbad Mike]

Originally Posted by janines.fishtales@cox.net

Ok. That does help. Why the mono first on the spool? So you don't use as much braid? Also, you like mono and not floro carbon for your leader.
What's all the hoopla about floro anyway?

Janine

I use mono because I guess I always have and it's always worked fine for me. As for why I spool it first, before the braid, two reasons... First, I spool 300 yards of braid and it looks but more importantly, it feels like the spool is only half or less full. Second, the mono underneath gives the braid a nice bed to grab on to.

Mike

[vincentek9]

for open face reels, i use 300yd of 65# spectra backing. the type of target fish determines on how much top shot to put. (YT on a kayak i do 20yd... halibut or threshers i go straight spectra). if you want to cast... you might want to uni-uni enough topshot so when you cast... the knot doesnt interefere with your guides (i put around 150yd of topshot for casting yoyo irons).

[janines.fishtales@cox.net]

Wow. Thanks all, for all the info. I think I know what to buy now, but I also think I'm still using mono for some applications. So whats a "top shot"? Is it a fancy way to say leader line or is it different?

Janine

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by janines.fishtales@cox.net

Wow. Thanks all, for all the info. I think I know what to buy now, but I also think I'm still using mono for some applications. So whats a "top shot"? Is it a fancy way to say leader line or is it different? Janine

Topshot is just another name for a leader.

Old school leaders were like Big Game leaders. Wire or heavy mono under 20 ft set up for abrasion resistance. Bite leaders under two feet were wire for toothy critters attached with something like a swivel. Then there were tippets small piece of less visible line like on the end of flylines.

Then long range fisherman started using wind-on leaders for big game where the leader could be reeled in through the guides, and get the fish to the gaff without a leaderman. Wind ons also allowed for much longer leaders in general.

Then came spectra.

Initially people were not sure how well spectra would fish. They first used it as backing and filled the reel with mono over the spectra on top, a top shot, often a hundred yards or more.

Over time though as people learned to fish spectra the topshots become shorter, and shorter. now they are pretty much the same as a wind-on leader, but unlike wind-on leaders which are heavier then the line test, topsots are generally lighter test then the spectra mainline.

Back in 2000 when I started playing with 8ft 30lbs topshots with 35lbs Izor spectra on a tld5 for local tuna people thought I was crazy, because the only guys using those kind of topshots were the long range crowd fishing for cow tuna. It worked though, here's one of the tuna I got back then on that rigging. Check out the TLD5 and that Izor (White line that I dyed blue) behind me.

Now small lever drags, spectra and topshots are common, but it took people a while and companies like Avet to figure out the merits of spectra and exactly what you could do with it.

Shimano completely missed the boat.

They were already making the TLD5 and TLD10 which would of been ideal for the new spectra market with a frame and drag upgrade but discontinued them right as Avet was designing their first spectra capable small reels like the Avet SX. So Avet ended up getting into the market before they did. They just didn't see it coming. You'd expect that from a company like Penn but not Shimano. Probably the biggest mistake in the tackle industry in the last 20 years.... ha ha.

[Deamon]

I need a hat like that...

[Jimmyz123]

When I'm going to be doing a lot of casting of irons I like mono for the stretch, and the smooth casts. If I'm going to fly line I like to use a 20 to 25 pound floro leader with 65# green braid. I do pretty much the same if I'm dropping to the bottom. Go with what you are comfortable with. It took me a while to really embrace braided lines. I loved them for bottom fishing, but wasn't comfortable with them casting. I soon got over that. Keep in mind that braid will cut your skin very easily if you're tying knots, or if you're trying to pull on it for some reason do be careful.

[taggermike]

I started using braid as a backing with 1/2 the reel filled with braid and the rest mono. As I became more comfortable fishing the actual braid I began filling my reels all the way with braid. Now I typicly use a 3-5 foot leader of fluoro with the braid. I like the extra feel of the bait or lure with the no stretch braid. Mono has up to 20% stretch so you deffinatey miss some of whats going on. In LJ I use 65lb braid with a 30 or 40 lb leader, mostly for braid's kelpcutting ability. In the bays for fishing plastics I go 20 or 30lb braid with anything from 8-15lb leader. Braided lines do cast very well but backlashes can be a disaster. I cast braid on spinners and baitcasters but for surface irons I still prefer 40lb mono. Mike

[FlyFishinYakr]

Originally Posted by JeffB

Spectra and are the same thing, no difference. I personally like to throw 65lb braid with a 25lb-50lb leader of floro. All depends on how clear the water is on how light of a leader and the length of my leaders. Clear water days I go with a 8'-12' of 30lb floro. Murky water day I go with a 4'-5' leader 40lb-50lb. This is what I use when throwing a dropper loop or yoyo'n' a jig. As for my surface iron I prefer straight mono, 30lb. The reasoning for it is that I get a nice clean throw through my guides and went I set the hook the line gives(stretches). I like a bit stiffer rod so that I can launch it and it allows me not to rip the bait out of the fishes mouth. As far as fly line, I just use braid with about a 20'-25' floro leader. I'm new to fly lining, so not sure what is exactly preferred.

This is what I like to do, and not what you have to do. I know that there will probably be more people reply and disagree with some of what I do. Good luck to you. Best thing about braid is that you can load 1.5x the line on your reel and if you get into kelp, it will cut it.


Another thing, mono floats and that's another reason I use it for surface baits. Braid and floro both sink down nicely.

I would not argue with your reasoning it does sound good and makes sense.
Personally for me, I fish 50# or 65# straight braid fishing the SHIMANO Waxwing or add 25' of 25#, top shot (leader) fluorocarbon if the water is super clear. I might not use top shot because if I'm fishing heavy kelp, I fish straight braid so it'll can 'cut' through the kelp. I don't worry too much on about line shy fish as my jig would be moving too fast for the fish to worry about. I'm trying for a 'reaction' bite much like bass fishing. My 50# can also double as my heavy jig rod.
When I fish live bait I'll carry another rod with straight 15# fluorocarbon for small bait and 25# for larger (macks/'dines) baits. The latter I can also use it for surface jigs (I.e. Tady 45's & AA's). If there are bigger fish around like "Rocky Point"/Catalina homeguard fish I carry a rod with 50# braid with 40# top shot.
Then I always fish straight 12# fluorocarbon on an inshore rod for swimbaits around the outside of the kelp.
There are any number of variations of what you can fish, a lot will come down with what you feel comfortable fishing.
As a side note it's not a bad idea to fish top shot because if you get caught jigging in the rocks at least you haves chance of being able to 'break off' mono or flouro where with spectra you might have to end up 'cutting off' the spectra (learned this the hard way bass fishing).
MY .02
FFY

[janines.fishtales@cox.net]

Awesome info guys. Thank you much.

J

[Dirty Curti]

WOW! This is some good stuff!

[JeffB]

Nicest thing about braid to floro, is that you can feel everything it the deeper water. Mono not so much. The bays however don't make too much of a difference for me.

[jaws197]

Brilliant thread and information here!!!!

Fiskadoro, your post especially should be stickied to the top of this forum! That info would save so many "why braid ?" questions in the best way!

I would love to have seen such a concise explanation to that same question when I first started considering the Braid versus mono question....

This thread is precisely why this site is one of my favorites!

[janines.fishtales@cox.net]

Wow. Again to everyone, thanks for all the info. Learned alot. This is obviously a topic where everyone has their own ideas and opinions, but what it boils down to is what the fisherman is comfortable with. I will try the braid and fluoro leaders. I'm still not ready to give up mono though!
I posted this question on my Kayak Fishing Addicts site too, and drew a huge amount of interest there too. In my opinion, this kind of info exchange is what these web sites are all about.
Janine