Hobie Revolution versus the Outback impressions

[pchen911]

After owning a couple of Hobie outbacks, I had some issues with it. Then a couple of weeks ago I heard the Revolution might be the solution to my issues. So I went and switched.

The biggest issue I had with the Outback was the launching and landing. Neither the paddles nor the pedals seemed ideal. Outback paddles like a pig, but you can't pedal in shallow water. Plus all the extra gear makes things messy.

Launching on the outback is doable if you don't mind wading out deep and use the pedal. But landing really sucks. If you pedal in and raise the rudder at the last second, it can get messy where you have to be doing 5 things at once while surfing a wave. Then the minute rudder is raised, you turn parallel to the waves. If you paddle in, its slow and hard to keep straight on a wave.

After hearing that the revolution paddles better, I thought this would solve my problems with launching and landing by allowing me to paddle out and in, and take the pedals out of the equation.

So a week ago, I sold the 07 ouback and picked up the consignment used 08 Revolution at the Oceanside OEX.

The boat itself was an 08 model, but The pedals that came with the boat was not. The pedals were from an older model and was a little more "used" than the boat itself, so I don't know if that had any impact on my impressions. (Seemed like a pedal from an 05 boat?).

Paddle that I got was also old and beat up, so I ditched that and used my own paddle to get a more accurate feel.

(I thought this to be strange..... why sell a 2008 boat coupled with 05,06, or 07 parts??)

(Hummingbird fish finder that came with the boat was not as reliable as my cheap Eagle Cuda, so I might switch that out.... but that would be a different thread.)

In the end, my impression of the revolution is that it is not a significant benefit benefit over the outback.

Speed and range wise, it is about the same as the outback when using the pedals... maybe just ever-so-slightly faster. So my speed and range measured by GPS pretty much stayed the same as my P15 and Outback. I also did not notice any significant differences in the amount of time it takes me to reach the pier or to my regular GPS waypoints.

On paddle, the boat definitely paddles alot easier than the Outback... which is what I was looking for. But I did notice one quirk. The Revolution doesn't track as well as I had hoped without the rudder down, nor does it glide very well. I wasn't expecting this and thought it would track similar to the P15 while launching.... It doesn't come close. The moment I start paddling, I feel it... Took me all of 2 strokes in my first launch to notice. You gotta pay attention while punching through waves or you'll turn sideways real fast. (feels more like my old Islander kayak with a flat bottom and no keel).

Deck layout and rear storage is, of course, smaller than the outback. And with the pedals in place, it actually felt pretty cramped. I actually had a hard time trying to find space for some of my gear. Both the P15 and Outback had space to spare for my regular stuff. Rudder control is in a real strange position.... it is almost under my left thigh.

Location of the rear rod holder was further back and in an awkard position for my bait tank. The rods end up being in the way of the bait tank intake on one side, and in the way of the exhaust on the other side. (I guess I might have to switch to the Hobie bait tank to remedy this).

Without the front rod holder, it has to use the ram mount rocket launcher for the front. (Scotty won't work because the rear part of the scotty holders will get in the way of the pedals). This makes the boat more cramped and a bit of a pain while moving about or fighting a fish. (I also prefer scotty over the RAM mounts -- personal preference).

Stability wise, not as stable as the Outback, but that is no surprise. Revolution is still really stable so this is not an issue at all.

In the end, I am not sure if switching from an 07 Outback to an 08 Revolution was the right thing to do. I get about the same amount of benefit as well as drawbacks with the change over.

While I am never quite sure which to use (paddle or pedal) for launching the Outback. Paddle launch and land does work better with the Revolution, but you have to be paying attention. (Launching and landing is not nearly as intuitive and auto-correcting as the prowlers).

I guess I will play with this Revolution for some time and see if I can get the Hobie bait tank to help improve the situation.

[bigderel]

I did the exact opposite switch in Hobies - I started with the Adventure and moved to the Revolution. The difference in pedalling speed is slight - the glide is what the Adventure has over the Revo mainly. Paddling wise, neither of them track like a traditional sit on top when the rudder is up. I assume that this is due to the fact that they are designed to be used with the rudder & pedals. The Revo paddles pretty well though all things considered...and as long as your rudder cables are adjusted properly, the rudder should stay in position while you paddle making tracking a lot easier.

For surf launches, I always paddle in and out. I suppose I feel more comfortable launching & landing with my paddle as a control, personal preference I guess. Like you mentioned, it's nice not having to mind the pedals and rudder system. The Revo surfs better than my Adventure, better control and less chance of pearling. The Adventure would pick up speed so quickly at times it was hard NOT to surf a wave in...my intent on landings is to follow waves, not drop in. I recently landed at Sunset Cliffs in decent surf on the Revo - had to catch a wave and surf in and throw in a hard right turn around a set of rocks while doing so - and it handled perfectly. Very predictable, and there were two moments I know the Adventure would have pearled or gotten too squirrely.

As for the possibility you have earlier model pedals (if yours is the kayak I think it is), the previous owner has had several Hobies and may have gotten a new hull from Hobie and hung onto the previous set of pedals. I've got the '06 pedals in my '09 Revo myself for the same reason.

The layout of these two kayaks (Avdenture & Revo) up top is so similar that there is no decrease in usable deckspace. I also installed the Ram mounts - by the way, you can get Scotty style holders for the mounts if you prefer. That may work better for you. Also, for the back rodholders check out the extension fittings if you don't already have them. I built a Hobie-style livewell (bigger for bass tourneys) and the extensions work great even with the extra rodholders mounted to the side of the tank. You'll also get used to the deckspace after a while most likely - when I first got my Adventure I had made the switch from a Fish N' Dive. I went from a boat where I could practically launch wth the contents of my garage within reach to having limited space...but it's easy to get used to. For me it was forced organization!

[sdcityboy]

[quote=bigderel;29598]I've got the '06 pedals in my '09 Revo myself for the same reason.

i thought the '09 revo came with the click in peddles and older peddles would'nt work, and vice versa?

[bajadog]

I borrowed a buddy's revo before I bought mine. Lessons learned I guess.

I agree about the space on the revo, but I only fish artificial lures, so the
back storage area is open on mine.

Do you have turbo fins, and the sail rudder?

[Handymansd]

Thanks for the input. I have an outback and I find that my old FND paddled faster and more efficiently. But the range that the peddles have brought to the equation out weighs the paddle issues to me. I have thought of switching to the Revo as well, it seemed much much faster when I tried it, but as you said it does not maintain it's inertia (If you stop peddling, it does not continue to glide, it just stops.)worth crap. The deck layout was my biggest concern with the Revo. Alot of guys really like their Revos but I like lots of room to "customize" my fishing experience.

[pchen911]

Thanks for the replies.

Handyman, I think you got it right. If I needed space to customize, I would stick with the Outback. The best thing about the Revo over outback is paddling... because performance on pedals between the two is about the same.

Bajadog, I agree... If not for the bait tank (like on the bay), the revo is alot of fun and easy to set up. But then again, so was the outback.

I used both regular and turbo fins, but I personally prefer the regular sail drive fins instead of the turbo. As for rudder, the outback I had used the regular rudder, the revo used the sail rudder, so I can't really compare since it was more than 1 variable. But both rudders worked well.

Bigderel, you got it exactly right. We probably got the boats from the same previous owner. Makes alot more sense now.

I have the rod holder extension, but that doesn't solve the problem with the bait tank. I don't think there is a way around it for me except to get the hobie tank or to build another bait bucket from scratch.

[hammerhead]

Thanks for the info on the Hobies. Looking to get one "cheap". I know, cheap and hobies don't go together.

[Shorty]

It does suprise me to see folks saying the Outback has a similar speed to the Revo when peddled,,i thought with a narrower hull the Revo would leave it for dead,,,interesting

[pchen911]

Yea.... I was a bit surprised too.

The difference in speed between the two is something like 0.2 mph. http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=7704

Take the distance of launch to the pier for example..... which is 0.7 miles. Average speed of 4mph, it takes

0.7 = 4X, X=0.175 hours = 10 minutes 30 seconds

At 4.2 mph

0.7 = 4.2X, X=0.167 hours = 10 minutes 2 seconds

So you get to reach the pier 28 seconds sooner in a revolution if both boats start from the launch at the same time.

Or, putting it a different way, the Revolution would be approximately 10 boat lengths ahead for every mile travelled.

Some difference, but not a whole lot.

[Billy V]

.???

Originally Posted by pchen911

Speed and range wise, it is about the same as the outback when using the pedals... maybe just ever-so-slightly faster. So my speed and range measured by GPS pretty much stayed the same as my P15 and Outback. I also did not notice any significant differences in the amount of time it takes me to reach the pier or to my regular GPS waypoints.
I have tested the Outback and Revo back to back in Mission Bay and agree that they both produce about the same speed. I was surprised that the Revo wasn't significantly faster.

On paddle, the boat definitely paddles alot easier than the Outback... which is what I was looking for. But I did notice one quirk. The Revolution doesn't track as well as I had hoped without the rudder down, nor does it glide very well. I wasn't expecting this and thought it would track similar to the P15 while launching.... It doesn't come close. The moment I start paddling, I feel it... Took me all of 2 strokes in my first launch to notice. You gotta pay attention while punching through waves or you'll turn sideways real fast. (feels more like my old Islander kayak with a flat bottom and no keel).
It paddles better if you have the cassette plug in the well but that would take an extra step before your launch. When the mirage drive is installed its not a great paddle boat.

Deck layout and rear storage is, of course, smaller than the outback. And with the pedals in place, it actually felt pretty cramped. I actually had a hard time trying to find space for some of my gear. Both the P15 and Outback had space to spare for my regular stuff. Rudder control is in a real strange position.... it is almost under my left thigh.
The Outback has a nice deck layout.
Location of the rear rod holder was further back and in an awkard position for my bait tank. The rods end up being in the way of the bait tank intake on one side, and in the way of the exhaust on the other side. (I guess I might have to switch to the Hobie bait tank to remedy this).
Can you fit a Full Size milk crate in the rear well?

Without the front rod holder, it has to use the ram mount rocket launcher for the front. (Scotty won't work because the rear part of the scotty holders will get in the way of the pedals). This makes the boat more cramped and a bit of a pain while moving about or fighting a fish. (I also prefer scotty over the RAM mounts -- personal preference).

Stability wise, not as stable as the Outback, but that is no surprise. Revolution is still really stable so this is not an issue at all.

In the end, I am not sure if switching from an 07 Outback to an 08 Revolution was the right thing to do. I get about the same amount of benefit as well as drawbacks with the change over.

While I am never quite sure which to use (paddle or pedal) for launching the Outback. Paddle launch and land does work better with the Revolution, but you have to be paying attention. (Launching and landing is not nearly as intuitive and auto-correcting as the prowlers).

I guess I will play with this Revolution for some time and see if I can get the Hobie bait tank to help improve the situation.
Have you tried the Adventure yet ? I like mine and won't switch because of the speed. The only downside to me is that its not as easy to access the front hatch. Other than that I really like it. Its got lots of room in the cockpit. I leave a medium size dry bag in front of the peddles when I fish, and the rear well easily holds a full size milk crate with room to spare.
I find that it paddles well enough to make a charge for shore when you have to.
I don't think any one does it all perfect, but I like the faster boat in open ocean.

[pchen911]

Hi Billy,

Speed - Yea, I think the mirage drive is such a large factor in speed that the effect of hull shape gets far overshadowed.

No doubt the paddle will be better with the plug in place. But in comparing the two boats (outback vs revo), both were paddled under the same criteria with the drive in place folded up against the hull.

You do remind me of one point though.... I hear you can store the mirage drive into the front hatch of the Revo for launching and landings, whereas you cannot do that in the Outback. Next time, I will try it with plug in place and pedals inside the hatch and see how it performs.

Yes, you can indeed fit a milk crate into the rear well of the Revo. However, the Revo tankwell is quite a bit shallower than the outback. Especially as you go towards the back, it tapers upwards. In the end, my bait tank ends up resting much higher up on the Revo relative to the center of gravity. Not that it matters much since stability is pretty good on these boats.

I usually store my "backup" bait tube behind my bait tank in the rear well on all my previous boats. The Revo is the only one where I could not do this because the well becomes too shallow at that point. This is the one piece of gear that I ended up not having a place to store on the boat.

Haven't tried the Adventure yet. But with the way things went when moving from the Outback to the Revo, I don't think I will move again from the Revo to the Adventure. Speed difference between the Revo and the Adventure is something like 0.2 mph and the sacrafice was pretty big. But you never know... If I see another deal like the $950 Adventure that was up for sale a couple of days ago, I just might pick it up to play with for a bit.

[Vikingj]

I've tried several techniques with launching/landing my revo in the surf: Paddle without rudder = way too squirrely, even in light surf it wants to turn sideways; paddle with rudder down = better but you can't adjust the rudder when paddling and it doesn't move out very fast; pedal with rudder down = much faster (esp beneficial in going out) and easier to control but I have to jump out in 2-3 feet of water to grab the yak and pull up the rudder while the small breakers are rocking me (not always as easy as it sounds!). I also wonder what would happen if I turned sideways and didn't have my paddle ready to dig into the wave or if I jumped out on top of a sting ray?

Right now I'm favoring the pedal/rudder option for going out and the paddle/rudder option coming in.

[THE DARKHORSE]

What first comes to mind is "how do you have an exact experiment of speed in an environment that is well....not under control.....and more importantly measure....effort output"? Atleast this was my first thought when I read this original post.

I can only speak from my own experience, and say the Revo is way faster than the Outback. From the getting up on plane, to the cutting through chop, and especially when considering thinking of stamina neccisary to keep up that pace for hours on end (like a 12 mile sprint). I can understand, if somehow Paul kept up a 4 mph average with the Outback, but "I" didn't keep up that pace (that's pretty fast for the Outback). I will agree with the just over 4 mph average with the Revolution though (with less effort).

The most important factor "for me" is the effort neccisary to keep up that pace, and even faster at times (bird schools). I think you may have similar speeds with both models "in flat calm conditions", but the effort neccisary with the Revo is close to half compared to the Outback, and the Revo is at least 30% faster in choppy conditions (look at the bow and hull design). To paddlers out there, don't get it twisted, as the effort neccisary for a pedal kayak compared to a paddle kayak....is well...not exactly "apples to apples". A pedal kayak requires "probably" less than half the effort compared to a paddle kayak, and "maybe even less" (I'm no scientist ). This becomes obvious on hot days as I rarely even break a sweat anymore, even in hot pursuit, and I wear waders year round.

Honesty though, for the typical La Jolla angler (and most any angler on the coast), who travels less than 8 miles a day, the Outback has plenty of speed compared to a paddle kayak (with obviously plenty of stability ta' boot). For those with inshore/offshore aspirations, or those with no stamina and maybe a heart condition or just plain lazy , consider the Revo or Adventure. Again, "I can only speak from my own experience", and say you will notice the difference in speed, and if not check the GPS (keep in mind the GPS isn't all that accurate when measuring low speeds).

For those who are thinking about expanding their range, the Revo or Adventure will surprise you in a long hall, especially in windy choppy conditions with "river like current". Consider the typical California day : glassy conditions early, with increased wind around 10:00 a.m, and a wind momentum through the afternoon, then a late afternoon decrease in wind again. On my long range trips so far (longest over 40 miles), I keep a pace of close to 2.8 mph on my way offshore (much less than the original posters 4+ mph average), to save energy and chase porps, and to make sure I leave something in the tank for the ride home. After 5 hours of a near non-stop pace I'm 14 miles inshore/offshore and "barely break a sweat" on a typical cloudy 65 degree morning, with the Revolution. Getting to the zone is only half the battle, and the search for signs of life takes over. Unless I see something, I keep heading offshore. Of course, you have to do the math sooner or later, and ask yourself "how long is it going to take to make it home"? This is the cool part: With the Revo, I can "ride the swells" with the aid of the "typical afternoon wind", and reach speeds of 7 mph, and occasionaly a little faster. No, I can't hold a 7 mph average, but I can hold an average of close to 6 mph "with little effort". The sad part of it is, this is usually the highlight of my trip after not catching my tartget species (pretty fun). This is where I make up a lot of time, and how a 40 mile trip is possible in a day from a kayak (without killing yourself). Even if you can keep up a 5 mph average "with the wind at your back" (with little effort), those last 4 hours cover 20+ miles. On a windy afternoon, making the crossing from the local islands home would be cake. My first couple of trips I was pretty nervous doing the math , wondering if I was going to make it back by dark, but I'm always amazed how fast I make it home.

To make things clear, I'm not trying to get people to go buy a Hobie, or most importantly get people in over their head going inshore/offshore. I'm only sharing "my opinion", and I respect Paul's original post for his. I know for a fact these inshore/offshore trips will be common place in years to come, as soon as people experience it for themselves. Consider the price of gas and mothership trips $$$, with spectacular sportfishing at our fingertips, the sport will evolve beyond our "current comfort zone".

[pchen911]

Hey Josh,

Excellent point on the subjective nature of taking a measure of relative speed and especially effort output. I thought about that when I was trying to get an impression of the speeds on the two boats, but you are right. There is definitely too many variables in play to get a really scientific measurement going. Especially when taking two different boats with different setups out on different days.

So instead of using my own speed measurements, I tried looking up Hobies site to see if I can find some sort of a statement regarding what speeds each of their boat averages at.

The closest I found was this: http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=7704

(quoted with reference to the original post)

With access to the local dealer's fleet, here are some 1 hour cruise distances for different models (using Turbofins):

Adventure -- 5.3 to 5.4 miles

Revolution -- 5.0 to 5.1 miles

Outback ('07 hull) -- 4.8 miles +/-

(Note: these differences would grow with heavier wind and chop).

From what I can gather, the person that took these measurement is somewhat of an authority on the Hobie boards. Of course, like you said, this is not taking ocean conditions into consideration. In conditions with winds/chop/current, the relative difference can grow as the post mentioned.

Not exactly hard science, but the best data available so far.

I am limited by the amount of time I have when I go out at La Jolla, so I typically go between 7 to 8 miles on an average day out whether I am paddling or peddling. And I go slooowwww once I get past the reserve and start trolling, so I rarely push the envelope of distance or stamina on either the paddle or pedal boats.

In this type of fishing, I completely agree with you. The Outback is way more than sufficient for the typical fishing done at La Jolla and then some.

Perhaps this is why I got alittle disappointed with the switch from Outback to the Revolution. I switched for the reason of wanting an improved paddling, tracking, and glide for sake of paddle launching and landings. When in reality, the Revo excels at long distance / long range (time) treks.

I'll admit.. I never thought of doing the inshore/offshore treks myself .... not why I went to the Revo... For those that do, I look upon them with awe and respect. But not something I ever though of doing myself.... Like seeing someone run a marathon... "Wow, I am impressed but no thanks!!" I am one of those "plain lazy" types. (I'll do my long distance trips on my Cal 25 instead!).

By the way, since you are somewhat of the expert on the Revolution here. What launching and landing methods do you use yourself for surf? If not for the awkward launching and landings of the Hobies, I would certainly enjoy them alot more.

[dsafety]

There is a little "MacGyver" in me that can't resist trying to find solutions to problems using simple tools and materials. After buying a Revo last spring, I discovered that the Revo is a great boat but it is not without its shortcomings. Fortunately, this kayak is easy to mod. I have come up with a couple of things that make the boat more useful for me.

Because of the way I store my kayak in my garage, I cannot have the ball mounts sticking above the gunwales. That means that I cannot permanently mount a forward rod holder. I came up with a design for a removable rod holder that mounts in the Revo cup holder.

You can see a thread on this design here. http://www.bigwatersedge.com/bwevb/s...ead.php?t=3581

This device works really well while on the water but I find that it gets in the way when paddling. I usually remove it while launching and landing.

To deal with the awkward positioning of the rear rod holders, I created a "Accessory -Trolling Bar" that mounts in the rear holes and provides a better trolling setup with easier access to the rods.

Here is the thread for this project.
http://www.bigwatersedge.com/bwevb/s...ead.php?t=3583

This mod is very useful. It also provides a place to attach leashes, and would be ideal for mounting a light as well as other small items.

See you on the water.

Bob

[Billy V]

Josh,

I think you covered the true reason why I like the adventure so much.

-Plainly speaking, it takes less effort to cover our fishing grounds. I really don't go very fast out there, but I do cover a lot of area and never seem to get tired.

I use a slow cadence with turbo fins and it makes for a fun day on the water.
-------------------------------
BTW the $950 Adventure that was For sale was an absolute steal.
$1799 retail on these boats, and although there were some design changes to the 09 models my 06 has fished flawlessly for 2 years and still has another (2) years left on the factory warranty.

[THE DARKHORSE]

Hey Paul,

Disclaimer : I'm just a guy that loves to fish, not a scientist or expert.

I think you and I have the same trolling technique, "slow as possible". Although, I think you troll over more areas than I do (like the whole time once past the reserve). Over the years I've developed a different style of fishing La Jolla than most. For example: When most guys catch bait at the pier, and move to the particular grounds of the day they put out a bait and start trolling that way. When we fished north the other day, I didn't put a bait out until I hit my zone way up there. Sure, I probably flew over quite a few Yellowtail on the way, but I had an appointment for a bite pattern. When heading to the point from the pier I haven't trolled a bait on the way in probably five years now, until I make it to "my zone for that particular day". I know I'm passing fish on the way, but I have very little confidence in catching fish crossing this area, "most of the time" . If you add up all the time I spent with no bait in the water while making it to my spots on the X-Factor......well you get the idea.....plenty of wasted fishing time. For me, the Hobie is perfect for my fishing style, as I can cover ground quickly and maximize fishing time. I also never fish with Spanish Mackerel even though in the past I've caught giant White Sea Bass and Yellowtail on them (I know crazy right ). Although this summer (when I knew Yellowtail were in my zone), I did some pretty exciting emperiments (for me exciting) with Spanish Mackerel. My experiment was to pull the "slow swimming Spanish" at "very high speed" (when I knew Yellowtail were very close by), and eureka. I don't think my test pilots liked my experiment, and they can only keep up for a short time, but I found another reason to love the Hobie.

As far as landing, I guess I've been real lucky over the years. I've never lost anything more than a pair of pliers in 10' Big Rock surf (timing is everything). Until this spring, in the midst of my WCW delerium, fishing for White Sea Bass until 11:00 p.m., with macking surf breaking way way outside I took a monster over my back. I have to admit, I had six cans of liquid patience watching giant White Sea Bass circle my baits in the dark with the glowing luminescence before heading in. This was pretty funny, because I had just written a reply post about never losing it in the surf in ten years (and never leashing any of my gear), and how it's sooooooo easy "after you learn to surf your kayak with out gear in larger conditions" lol. I thought of Bing while I was swimming in my kayak with 8' waves bashing me repeatedly on the way in. Nothing against Bing, I thought he would of really got a kick out of karma catching up with me, never say never. Sure, I took a little hit to my pride (lost an old cheap gaff), but I didn't learn from that mistake, and had six more cans of liquid patience the next night, watching giant White Sea Bass circle my bait over and over again without ever biting in the glowing luminescence five feet below my kayak . Same swell and beverage consumption coming in around 10:00 p.m., it happened again, giant wave hits me as I'm back paddling over a monster, atleast 8'+lol. I thought of Bing agian, and wished I had a helmet cam on for him to spit out his beer as he watched laughing. Note to self: Surfing your kayak is sooooooo easy, but not in the dark with giant swells that you can't see coming, after a six-pack of liquid patience and having your heart broken (again) by giant White Sea Bass. Atleast I learned from the night before, and tied a rope around all my rods, but I lost a $100 Henckel chef's knife that was my kelp cutter.

Shortly after this experience I switched to the Hobie crafts, and started fishing them without ever taking them in the surf "without gear"..... to figure them out (not listening to my own advice ). I started with the Outback, and man what a difference from the X-Factor as far as surfing ability. I felt like I was riding my dad's surfboard , and was a little scared the first couple of night landings. Being that the boat is 12' long and my 6' frame with feet close to the bow, I felt like it was a definate indo, but that never happened. I never took a spill on the Outback, and got used to the surfing characteristics pretty quickly. I'm sure we have similar experiences while paddling out on the Outback, as it's not the fastest craft, but that being said, with all that stability it's pretty challenging to flip the thing. When I switched to the Revo, man what a difference. At first, I didn't like the handling as much while coming in through the surf, as she is so responsive I thought she was unstable. After multiple trips through the surf, I realized she wasn't unstable at all, just responsive, kinda like my little shortboards that turn on a dime, as apposed to my dad's stubborn boards.

To answer your question, my launching and landing technique is somewhat determined by the fact that I don't own the Hobie crafts outright. They belong to Fastlane, and I respect their property. Thus I'm very careful, with their kayaks and especially the Mirage Drive. Sure, they told me to use the Mirage Drive coming in and going out through the surf, as many Hobie users do, but I use the paddle in most cases (when I don't forget to bring it). I don't like to put the Mirage Drive in while on the beach, and let the weight of the kayak rest on the fins, even though I see plenty of guys doing it without any negative effects.